posted
I just posted the following at the CAPTAIN COMICS board...
A very, very long discussion thread about AVENGERS at LEGION WORLD put forth the idea that, once Roger Stern had Hank Pym BEAT Egghead, and then Steve Englehart had him join the West Coast team, the whole "mentally unstable" thing should have been done and over with. (I'd like to go on record that I was utterly bewildered at the time when Englehart-- without any warning whatsoever-- had Pym TRY TO KILL HIMSELF!!! What the F***?????) And further, tha Bob Harras had Pym evolve and grow way past his problems. So when first, Chuck Austen, and then Kurt Busiek BOTH had to retread old news that way... it showed a lack of imagination, coupled with a lack of respect for earlier stories that had already covered what they were supposedly trying to cover (AGAIN) themselves.
Personally, I think Pym has been getting repeatedly screwed over ever since Roy Thomas took over the book way, way back when. (He also made Jan look really stupid while he was at it, and Hank Pym would be the first to tell you, SHE WASN'T.)
I'm really glad the entire ANT-MAN run has been collected both in B&W and color, because these days fans can very easily read "the good stuff" without having to put up with the CRAP that came later (if they choose to ignore it).
Registered: Aug 2003
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
Pym, IMO, suffers from the same problem that Aquaman suffers. Author du jour wants to 'address the fans perceptions of the character' instead of just friggin' writing a good story with the character.
I don't need to have Pym's past actions rationalized to me, any more than I need to have the writer explain to me why Aquaman doesn't suck. If I thought that Pym was a waste, or that Aquaman sucked, I wouldn't bloody well be reading the book, now would I?
It's gets all meta-textual, and self-referential, and feels more masturbatory than anything else.
Tell a good Pym story. People who judge the character based on more than one panel in his past will continue to draw their own conclusions. People who judge the character only based on that one panel, will *also* continue to draw their own conclusions. Don't waste another panel (or decade, for that matter) trying to change their minds.
Mighty Avengers, IMO, went way, way overboard in trying to fluff up Pym, with the Scientist Supreme bit perhaps being the most epic bit of wankery. Avengers Academy, on the other hand, seems to be doing a much more down-to-earth presentation of the character.
If, 10 years ago, someone had suggested that Pym would back-to-back lead a pair of Avengers teams, I'm not sure I would have believed that he could be brought back from where they had left him. And here we are.
If he never has another breakdown or crisis of confidence or total freakout again, so much the better.
Tony and Reed are way past due, anyway.
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Well, I'm glad I missed all of that Pym stuff, especially wife beating, suicide and stupid Jan. She was rather vapid, in the early days, anyway, but never stupid. At least, that I remember.
That kind of stuff seems to happen to all of the soap opera stuff in comics, with the same characters going on and on.
-------------------- 'In the twinkling of an eye' I'll be dancing in the sky!
Come, join me!
From: Salem, Oregon USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Steve Epting, a major favorite on LW including me, joins Hickman on the second (monthly) Avengers series, New Avengers. The only other news I've seen so far is the Vision is included.
Where did you see the Vision news?
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
To be expected. I read the Busiek run, not the others. This doesn't "excuse" what Steve Englehart did in my eyes. Steve was my favorite writer in the early-mid 70's. But when he came back-- working for 3 companies at the same time-- the quality of his writing was shockingly erratic, sometimes from one issue to another. Not like the old days at all.
The writers who SCREWED Hank Pym over, initially, were Roy Thomas, then Jim Shooter. And then, Jim Shooter AGAIN. In between, Steve Gerber, and then Steve Englehart (yes, IN that order) told some really good stories about him and Jan, in DEFENDERS, then AVENGERS. It's sad that Gerry Conway screwed over Steve Englehart (and Marvel in general) during his brief run as EIC. Who knows what Steve might have done if he hadn't been kicked off the book, because (like every other book Conway took over from someone else at the time), Conway wanted to write it himself (so he could make extra money on the side)?
Thomas didn't seem to think he was doing anything wrong when he messed with both Hank & Jan's personalities. With Jim Shooter, it seemed a deliberate act of character assassination. But then, he did that with just about every character (created by other people) that he wrote. Chris Claremont, at the time, wrote several stories specifically designed to REFUTE this kind of character assassination perpetuated by other writers. Chris is NOT my favorite writer by any means, but between AVENGERS ANNUAL #10 and that 2-part MARVEL TEAM-UP with Yellowjacket & Wasp (where he upped their power levels and reaffirmed their love for each other), it's clear he didn't like it when some other writer would come along and just try to destroy long-running characters. (Then again, considering what he did in so many of his own stories, maybe he figured, "Hey, that's MY job!")
To summarize: all that later damage control NEVER should have been "neccessary". But, like the families that got rich helping Hitler to re-arm Germany, I'm sure the trouble-makers will never pay for what they did. (Yes, I do love making outrageous comparisons like that...)
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Set: "Pym, IMO, suffers from the same problem that Aquaman suffers. Author du jour wants to 'address the fans perceptions of the character' instead of just friggin' writing a good story with the character."
I LOVE your attitude!!!
"People who judge the character only based on that one panel"
Did you happen to read where, recently, Jim Shooter tried to "EXPLAIN" how the story that got published got COMPLETELY out-of-hand and was NOT what he "intended" AT ALL? He tried to blame the artist for "misinterpreting" what he gave him in a script. YEAH, RIGHT. This, the guy who spent his entire career in comics, since high school, going out of his way to DESTROY other people's characters. (This is the guy, remember, who had Matt Murdock have a nervious breakdown.)
Candlelight: "Well, I'm glad I missed all of that Pym stuff, especially wife beating, suicide and stupid Jan. She was rather vapid, in the early days, anyway, but never stupid. At least, that I remember."
The so-called wife-beating (IT WASN'T) consisted of him slapping her ONCE (ONCE!) when he was under extreme pressure and didn't know what he was doing. I'm sure far worse things happen in many families without criminal charges being brought up. So many calling it "wife-beating" ever since makes it sound like it was something he spent YEARS doing on a regular basis.
Sometime when Kirby, Heck, Ayers or someone else was doing their regular series, there was at least one scene that sticks in my mind, where Hank either thinks, he doesn't understand why Jan acts so air-headed, when HE KNOWS she's not that way, that she IS smart-- or, he says it right to her face.
But during Roy Thomas' run on AVENGERS, he had her hire a chauffer without checking references. The guy turned out to be a super-villain with a grudge against her husband. I MEAN REALLY. And it took YEARS before anybody figured it out! Talk about a "National Security" problem.
The suicide attemp came in WEST COAST AVENGERS. This was after Shooter destroyed Yellowjacket's career, had him arrested, brought up on charges, and made sure that Roger Stern was onboard as far as making the absurd statement that Hank & Jan were "NEVER" right for each other. So after he beat Egghead and cleared his name, Hank & Jan still went their separate ways. Later, he joined the WCA. And about a YEAR later... out of NOWHERE... he tried to off himself. When I read it, it was like... WHAT??? There had been NO warning. Unless of course, you'd been reading Jim Shooter's 2nd run on AVENGERS. Which was like, already 2-3 years in the past by then.
It wasn't until decades later I got ahold of ESSENTIAL ANT-MAN and was finally able to read the entire run of their series. Those are some of my favorite stories from that era these days.
Registered: Aug 2003
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When I was a kid, a tornado came by our place after dark. I went out to check my horses that were in the basement of the barn. The barn was gone and something was screaming in the night. I ran back in the house and told my family, who laughed. I decided to get slightly hystarical, just to get my point across, you understand. Dad slapped me.
So, he should be labeled a child beater? gads
-------------------- 'In the twinkling of an eye' I'll be dancing in the sky!
Come, join me!
From: Salem, Oregon USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: A slap? That's it?
I think it was a backhanded punch, actually, from a dude who was, at the time, psychotic and dissociative (this was during the time when he honestly believed that he was some other dude who killed Hank Pym and stole his stuff, which, minus the killing Pym part, is the origin story for at least three other superheroes, suggesting that Pym really needs to keep better track of his stuff...).
Reed and Peter, without the benefit of psychosis, have slapped Sue and Mary-Jane, respectively, and somehow escaped the 'wife-beater' label, and gone on to do fun stuff like retconning their marriage out of existence with a devil's deal, and send supervillain 'cape-killers' after their wife, brother-in-law and best friend over a political disagreement.
(Note to self, don't marry a super-hero! They can be jerks!)
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
No, no, no! The "wife-beater" thing wasn't from that old Roy Thomas-John Buscema-George Klein story... this was about 10 years later, when Jim Shooiter took over the book for the 2nd time (very briefly). He followed Bill Mantlo, Gene Colan & Dan Green, in fact, Gene did Shooter's 1st issue (which is horrible, considering how much non-stop HELL Shooter put poor Gene thru-- he just HATED Gene's art and did everything in his power to inspire Gene to QUIT).
The line-up had just gone thru another shake-up, and for the 2nd time in some years, Yellowjacket & Wasp re-joined the team. And about 1 issue later, there was this whole thing where Hank was under stress for some reason Shooter invented, he slapped Jan, she showed up at the mansion wearing dark glasses, and Hank created a robot to sent to attack the team so he could look brilliant when he defeated it.
If you ask me, it's not the character who was sick, it was the writer. And I use that word loosely.
Here's the character path I remember from the old days...
Steve Gerber brings Yellowjacket out of retirement in THE DEFENDERS.
Steve Englehart has Yellowjacket & Wasp rejoin THE AVENGERS.
Conway boots Englehart, then skips, leaving an opening for Shooter. About 6 months in, OUT OF NOWHERE, Shooter has Ant-Man show up in a psychotic episode in which he attacks the entire team for no apparent reason. There was an explanation, but it seemed from the start Shooter decided to start screwing over Hank Pym. (Perhaps his "excuse" was, "Roy started it!")
Chris Claremont & John Byrne-- in MARVEL TEAM-UP-- do a story which reaffirms just how much Hank & Jan love each other, and her power levels get increased at the same time. At the time, it struck me the entire 2-parter was Claremont & Byrne thumbing their nose at Shooter.
Shooter returns to AVENGERS and DESTROYS Hank & Jan's happy marriage. BASTARD. Then he skips, leaving a long string of fill-ins, in which somebody (maybe it was one of Shooter's stories), Tony Stark has an affair with Jan, then breaks her heart when she finds out for the first time he's Iron Man (I forget the rationale or details). Right after this, Denny O'Neil has Tony fall off the wagon (OVER SOME OTHER WOMAN) and he loses his entire company and fortune and winds up living on the streets-- for 3 whole years.
You can see something was deadly wrong with Marvel at this point. Worse, fans thought it was brilliant.
Roger Stern takes over for a very long, stable run on AVENGERS. In his 1st issue, Hank is put on trial for crimes involving national security, is kidnapped by Egghead (who, it's revealed, was affecting his mind and caused him to slap his wife). Egghead gets KILLED, Hank is cleared of all charges. And then, Hank & Jan decide they were "never right for each other" and go their separate ways. Eventually, she becomes team leader and has affairs with several different men. I always figured Stern was following Shooter's ORDERS when he did this.
Steve Englehart gets on WEST COAST AVENGERS. About a year and a half in, out of nowhere, hank tries to kill himself. (It was NEVER mentioned-- ever-- but may he LIED when he told Jan what he did?)
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Candlelight: "Dad slapped me. So, he should be labeled a child beater?"
My Dad did 100 TIMES WORSE to me over a stretch of about 30 YEARS. He never got arrested over it.
Actually, he did get a record for assault & battery once. The charges were brought against him by my mother-- who was suffering from MENTAL ILLNESS at the time which caused NON-STOP CHAOS in our home for a couple of decades. So, check this. He gets a record for something he DIDN'T do, the much worse things he DID, not a hint. Irony? Poetic justice? Insanity?
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Well, I finally finished this one - most of Mystery Lad's suggestions in motion, sort of.
The Knights seem to have quite a bit of skin showing, so the ones that I put together that didn't have any, I corrected, like Darkstar. I actually like her look better with the little tweeks.
I like that Crystal can take her armor off and she has her regular costume on (more golden than yellow, richer) after she puts her black belt on. Lockheed started as on of JR's creations, but I changed the look pretty substancially with the armor, etc.
Mantis was fun to make levitating. I really like her finished design, which is mostly Razer's. I added the cape and her hand and leg positions, is all.
I returned Polaris, because she's pretty cute.
I didn't have much interest originally in Madame Mask, but that changed as I put her together. I love the mask, which is almost totally different from the base character's that JR did. But, I did keep his gun and holster for her because they're so neat.
Magma got the steed, which took foreever but I like the results.
I hope that they're enjoyed:
-------------------- 'In the twinkling of an eye' I'll be dancing in the sky!
Come, join me!
From: Salem, Oregon USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Re: Hank's suicide attempt in WCA....that's actually pretty true to life for a lot of people. The first thing a lot of people say when someone they love kills themselves is that it came out of nowhere and that nobody had any idea the person was that low.
There were signs leading up to it...his interactions with Ultron and Whirlwind, the way he grew immediately attached to Tigra and then had to stop himself from flipping out when she said she just wanted to be friends...could it have been written better? Probably, but while I remember it being a shocking cliffhanger at the time it seemed like a reasonable progression from the past year or so worth of characterisation as well.
I think it's a shame that Hank didn't just stay Hank Pym, scientific adventurer for the rest of his career. To me, that really made the best use out of his character that he'd had since the early days of the original Avengers. Plus, his powerset at that point was something that was pretty unique in comics. The only character I can think of who had anything comparable was Shaman from Alpha Flight with his medicine pouch (and much later on, Honey Lemon from Big Hero 6). Hank may have been Marvel's original size-changing hero, but now he's just one of many and I think it diminishes them all, the same way Jan getting growth powers all of a sudden diminished her uniqueness as well (no pun intended)
-------------------- Read the alternate adventures of the Legion after Legion of Three Worlds! postlo3w
Registered: Nov 2009
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quote:Originally posted by razsolo: I think it's a shame that Hank didn't just stay Hank Pym, scientific adventurer for the rest of his career.
I agree. One of the reasons I no longer read Marvel or DC is because there's never a sense of closure to anything. Hank Pym gives up being a costumed hero and is happy . . . but then, a few years later, he's back to being Giantantyellowjacketman or whatever.
I know comics aren't like real life, and I know super-heroes are fodder for whatever the company wants to do with them. I also know the illusion of change in comics is just that: an illusion.
But Marvel and DC's universes worked best for me when I actually believed these heroes could change, even if the changes weren't always what I or other fans wanted.
In real life, the Beatles never got back together . . . and they were probably happier for it.
In real life, gay people don't get "cured" of homosexuality. They find peace with themselves, even though they don't fit into the mold certain others would project upon them.
Comics, like literature, are at their best when they reflect real life within the bounds of fantastic settings. The original X-Men go their separate ways . . . Jean Grey dies . . . the Vision and the Scarlet Witch marry . . . Hank Pym retires from being a super-hero. Life happens. We deal with it, and we learn to look at things in a new way.
Closure is a way of acknowledging that we are not who we used to be and that the journey has been worth it.
When comics stopped being about a journey, I stopped believing in them.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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