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I tend to agree, Set- however one of the goddesses you mentioned isn't really the goddess of anything. Sif hasn't got a "goddess of _________" persona, unfortunately. Either in Marvel mythology or Norse.
It is fun to imagine just what Volstagg would be the god 'of', though, isn't it? Or Fandral.
From: Knoxville, TN | Registered: Jul 2003
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Whatever happened to Karnilla anyway? She hasn't shown up since JMS brought the Asgardians back. Was she killed before Ragnarok like Odin so wasn't eligible for return?
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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Actually I feel like she's shown up somewhere I just can't remember where. She's one of my favorites.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Chief Taylor: Also, is Kelda still alive? Gillen's run kind of left it vague, the way he ended it. I mean, she got run through with a sword, but there was no "death scene" from what I could tell.
The sword was her soul (or, rather, the large chunk of her soul that Loki cut out), and when Thor stabbed her with it, she reabsorbed it - hence her sudden collapse to the floor in tears as her conscience came back.
quote:Originally posted by Set: While I kinda liked Kelda, I would like to see more Asgardians who are gods of something... Too many generic Asgardians just seem to be hanging out and not have any real mythic significance. Even if they make up a goddess named Kelda, she should be the goddess of *something,* and not just 'random hot blonde.'
She's a storm goddess - besides her powers, she calls herself "Kelda Stormrider" in Thor:GSF, and "mistress of the ice and lashing rain and and churning cloud" in Thor #613.
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
quote:Originally posted by Chief Taylor: I liked it back when she and Balder were an item. If she returned, it might give him something more to do than just mope!
And, hey, wasn't Balder's hair white?
Balder's hair turned back circa Thor #400 in the late 80's in the Seth storyline, where I think Balder (then Lord of Asgard) used the Odin-power to defeat Seth. This was also when Odin returned after leaving during Simonson's run.
It's funny how Karnilla has had several eras in Thor's history where she was a hugely important supporting character. There was the mid-late Silver Age and the 1970's, and I loved when Walt reintroduced her after a brief time of not seeing her.
I'm also someone who'd like to see more Norse Gods from actual Norse mythology show up. But not all at one!! Roy Thomas did this in the early 80's and all that resulted was they showed up for a few issues and then faded out; it'd be better to have one or two show up and be part of several stories over time, and then eventually another one introduced.
And as Reboot pointed out, Kelda is not just a background citizen of Asgard but an actual Goddess.
I've always believed the Warrior's Three should be the Gods of Camaraderie (Brothers at arms, etc.). That fits them better than anything, or each one having an individual role.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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I would be curious to see what creators worked on the book between Simonson and JMS, the lengths of their runs and some of the highlights.
As I said before, I'm pretty familiar with the DeFalco/Frenz run and its decidedly more cosmic feel. At some point I gave up on them because they seemed intent on reversing everything that Simonson had changed about the characters.
The next time I read was when Jurgens started with Romita Jr. on art. Not sure how long I stuck that one out...maybe a year or so. I think ultimately I lost interest when Romita left before very long. Nothing Jurgens wrote really set my imagination on fire either.
At some point I picked up a few issues of the Thunderstrike series. There was something about the character and the book's tone that appealed to me, but for whatever reason, I didn't stick it out. Maybe it was how Marvel was glutting the market at the time with short-lived launches of books like Slingers, Green Goblin Fantastic Five and countless others.
I don't think I picked up so much as an issue after that point. I remember Odin's death making headlines around the time Quesada was saying "dead is dead". (Like that really stuck, huh?) I know the last pre-JMS storyline involved writing by Michael Avon Oeming of Powers fame and effectively laid the groundwork for JMS to eventually bring them back.
Anyhow, Cobie (and anyone else), I wouldn't mind some more details of what happened between Simonson and JMS if you'd care to paint some brushstrokes.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
I've heard it said that whenever Aquaman becomes King of Atlantis, his book seems to falter and fade away. IMO, the same has happened to Thor. Without Odin (or Baldar sitting the throne), Thor simply can't function as an Avenger, believably, since he's kinda supposed to be hanging out on Asgard, being all kingly (unless they do that *other* thing that happens to Atlantis / Asgard / etc. whenever it's inconvenient, and blow it the hell up...).
Thor as King of Asgard (or any other superhero as King of Anywhere) works great for a limited stretch of one's own title, but really holds the character back from interaction with other characters or other parts of the universe (which is probably why Luke Cage became the go-to guy for Bendis to use as his black Avenger, while the Black Panther got left on the Island of Misfit Toys).
This could apply to others as well. Hulk couldn't stay on either of the worlds he's ended up in charge of. Namor only gets to play when he's not in charge of his version of Atlantis. Black Bolt has rulership as one of the reasons why he sucks as a character (Can't talk? We never see his thought bubbles? Wow. Talk about a crippling character to write for!).
It seems like Asgard, while a rich source of story potential to mine, can hold Thor back, if he's *too* intimately tied to it, and the original Stan Lee 'formula' of him being in kinda/sorta exile works best if he's going to be an active presence in the Marvel Universe at large.
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quote:Originally posted by Set: I've heard it said that whenever Aquaman becomes King of Atlantis, his book seems to falter and fade away. IMO, the same has happened to Thor. Without Odin (or Baldar sitting the throne), Thor simply can't function as an Avenger, believably, since he's kinda supposed to be hanging out on Asgard, being all kingly (unless they do that *other* thing that happens to Atlantis / Asgard / etc. whenever it's inconvenient, and blow it the hell up...).
Thor as King of Asgard (or any other superhero as King of Anywhere) works great for a limited stretch of one's own title, but really holds the character back from interaction with other characters or other parts of the universe (which is probably why Luke Cage became the go-to guy for Bendis to use as his black Avenger, while the Black Panther got left on the Island of Misfit Toys).
This could apply to others as well. Hulk couldn't stay on either of the worlds he's ended up in charge of. Namor only gets to play when he's not in charge of his version of Atlantis. Black Bolt has rulership as one of the reasons why he sucks as a character (Can't talk? We never see his thought bubbles? Wow. Talk about a crippling character to write for!).
It seems like Asgard, while a rich source of story potential to mine, can hold Thor back, if he's *too* intimately tied to it, and the original Stan Lee 'formula' of him being in kinda/sorta exile works best if he's going to be an active presence in the Marvel Universe at large.
100% agree about Thor as King of Asgard. He needs to be free to go off and have adventures, both on Earth and elsewhere, and not have kingly responsibilities to Asgard. That's why Odin's presence was so important (as well as the father/son relationship which was much more important from the 60's-Walt's run).
I think when Odin is dead/gone, which has happened a real lot of times over the years, it works better when Balder or Heimdall steps into his role (which has happened); however, this only works as a temporary solution since the idea is this should be Thor's duty, not theirs. Ipso facto, Odin being dead doesn't always work so well; Walt's idea of Odin being "missing" was a good one, as then Balder was known to the Asgardians as a temporary fix (and later Heimdall), so the question of "why isn't Thor our King?" wasn't all that pressing.
I think you are also quite correct on T'Challa and why often he doesn't work well as an Avenger. He's a favorite of mine too and I like him in the Avengers. But I don't like the idea of T'Challa losing his role as King (whereas when it happens to Namor, I'm okay with it).
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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I’ve held off on talking about the Don Blake history because it’s all from memory and I could get it wrong, but I believe it goes something like this:
(1) Original appearances have Don Blake, as Reboot said, finding Thor’s hammer and basically taking on his persona. In other words, Don Blake was the actual person.
(2) Pretty soon after, it was subtly reversed so clearly Thor was the major persona. However, it was pretty unclear whether Don Blake was someone else completely or the same person. I’ve read all of these issues numerous times and it’s unclear. The reason this trend developed is first, Loki was introduced, then Odin, then Balder, and so on and so forth, so Asgard clearly was a pre-existing place.
(3) The Tales of Asgard back-up feature introduced Thor & Loki’s adventures as boys and established Thor was around much longer than Blake. These stories also introduced Thor’s adventures with the Warrior’s Three (introducing the characters) long before Don Blake.
(4) Around Thor #150 or so, a huge debate erupts in the Thor Letter’s Page as fans point out that clearly Don Blake cannot be the main person if Thor is hundreds of years older than Blake. So in Thor #158-159, Kirby & co. establish that indeed, Don Blake was a fictional personality created by Odin for Thor to show him humility (using the original origin as a starting point). It shows Don Blake’s actual first day on Earth, in college, where he first appears at least 20 years old (likely more), as Odin sent him with false memories of his life beforehand. In these issues, in modern times, Thor actually learns all this information for the first time.
(5) It stays this way for a long time, throughout the 1970’s and early 1980’s. When Don Blake shows up, his thought bubbles are in modern English, but it’s clearly Thor who is thinking them. BTW, during this time, the most complicated subplot in Thor history begins involving Sif and Jane Foster, where Sif & Jane almost have a Don Blake/Thor relationship which I won’t get into here.
(6) Since Blake wouldn’t be seen sometimes for 20 issues in a row, by the time Walt arrives, he decides Blake is no longer needed and so he famously gets rid of the personality. During Walt’s run, Thor temporarily pulls a Clark Kent type approach to his down time on Earth as Sigurd Jarlson.
That brings us to here:
quote:Originally posted by Chief Taylor: I would be curious to see what creators worked on the book between Simonson and JMS, the lengths of their runs and some of the highlights.
As I said before, I'm pretty familiar with the DeFalco/Frenz run and its decidedly more cosmic feel. At some point I gave up on them because they seemed intent on reversing everything that Simonson had changed about the characters.
The next time I read was when Jurgens started with Romita Jr. on art. Not sure how long I stuck that one out...maybe a year or so. I think ultimately I lost interest when Romita left before very long. Nothing Jurgens wrote really set my imagination on fire either.
At some point I picked up a few issues of the Thunderstrike series. There was something about the character and the book's tone that appealed to me, but for whatever reason, I didn't stick it out. Maybe it was how Marvel was glutting the market at the time with short-lived launches of books like Slingers, Green Goblin Fantastic Five and countless others.
I don't think I picked up so much as an issue after that point. I remember Odin's death making headlines around the time Quesada was saying "dead is dead". (Like that really stuck, huh?) I know the last pre-JMS storyline involved writing by Michael Avon Oeming of Powers fame and effectively laid the groundwork for JMS to eventually bring them back.
Anyhow, Cobie (and anyone else), I wouldn't mind some more details of what happened between Simonson and JMS if you'd care to paint some brushstrokes.
DeFalco and Frenz came in following Walt and Sal Buscema’s exit (since Walt was only writing the series at that point) and it sounds like you have a good sense of the beginning of their run. DeFalco and Frenz throughout their run were very much inspired by the mid to later part of Kirby’s original run, giving it a more cosmic feel, with adventures in space and the like. Some of the things that happened were:
- Introduction of Leir and the Celtic Gods, the Earth Force and the Black Knight becomes a recurring supporting character (following his exit from the Avengers). - Return of the Celestials for the first time since Roy Thomas’ mega story culminating in Thor #300. The Celestials returned a few times during this run. - High Evolutionary plays a big part. - Thor “ages 1,000 years” via the Celestials which actually leads to him losing his beard and the scar on his face healing. - Thor’s original costume is restored. - The big story that culminates in Thor #400 is the rise of Seth and his assault on Asgard. This featured just about every single character at the time. Some of the things that happened were Balder uses the Odin power and the end result is he gets his brown hair back, and more importantly, Odin and Surtur return at last. Thor is able to finally beat Surtur and Odin is restored; however, Odin is exhausted from battling Surtur all this time and so immediately goes into the Odin sleep. Odin also now once again has both eyes. - Also during this battle, Amora’s sister Lorelei dies. It should be noted there were many other supporting characters at this time (Kurse, Balder’s squire that Walt introduced, etc.). They are all still alive, but just faded into obscurity.
During the run, one of the major things to happen was Thor and Eric Masterson combine together into one being. IIRC, and I’ve only read the issue one time, Masterson sacrificed himself for Thor and was on the verge of death; Thor, seeing Eric’s young son and moved by the noble sacrifice, imparted a part of his life force into him (or something). Thus, Masterson was the regular personality but when he hit his cane on the ground, he became Thor. This is *like* the Don Blake/Thor relationship but different, as Reboot points out, as they are clearly two separate people.
Post Thor #400, some other plot elements: - I think around this time, with Odin in the Odinsleep, Balder steps down after his recent ordeal and Heimdall becomes temporary leader of Asgard. This leads to a tension with Amora and the subsequent end of their relationship. - Return of the Recorder, Ego the Living Planet and others. - Hercules becomes Thor’s temporary co-star once again (like in the 70’s) and they hunt down the Wrecking Crew for revenge (from Stern’s Avengers story). - Thor and Sif break apart even further and Sif becomes more enamored with Beta Ray Bill. She cuts all her hair off and goes off on some space quest. It’s actually a cool subplot involving the Celestials and Ego the Living Planet, hinting at an even larger living galaxy (the entire Black Galaxy) but DeFalco could never finish this plot.
Around this time, and I can’t remember how, something happens to Thor where he basically dies or is lost or something happens to his soul (like I said, I can’t remember). What essentially happens then is that Eric Masterson’s personality suddenly becomes in control of Thor’s body. So Thor is still Thor in powers & body, but it’s Eric’s personality. I think this is what leads to Sif leaving with Beta Ray Bill. Most of Asgard and Earth is not aware of this. I think this happens prior to the issue, but essentially #433 launches this new era: Thor once again has a big beard, and the “Walt helmet” but the rest of the costume is the classic. When you see Thor in this garb, it means it’s the Eric Masterson Thor. Thor is also in the Avengers in this way during this time (I think this is during Operation Galactic Storm).
Other things that happen: - The Thor Corps is introduced: Thor, Beta Ray Bill and the Thor of the Future (who DeFalco introduced). - Bloodaxe is introduced, Thuderstrike’s nemesis, wielding something similar to the Executioner’s axe (that was whom Bloodaxe was meant to invoke but in a 90’s way).
In #449-450 the big story is Odin wakes up at long last and wonder where the hell Thor is. #449 has a really great cover that shows this. It leads to all kinds of craziness but ultimately, Odin resumes his role as King of Asgard at long last, about 100 issues after Walt phased him out. He doesn’t get many answers however, as Eric remains Thor, and vows to find the real Thor for Odin. By this time, most of Asgard has returned to normal pre-Walt, except for Sif, who is still trying to find herself. She subsequently rejoins the cast in hopes to find Thor. (There may have been a story with Odin possessed or influenced by Loki but I can’t remember; it’s eventually resolved).
Ultimately, it’s revealed that Mephisto is the one who has Thor’s soul. Eric/Thor, Sif and others battle Mephisto and at long last, free Thor and Thor is restored back to normal. Issue #458 has a great Thor vs. Eric/Thor cover, which is a tribute to the Kirby original Thor vs. Hercules cover. Thor is restored back to his normal self so that he is simply just Thor again, and Eric becomes simply Eric Masterson again. What happens next is Thor and Odin are both so moved by Eric’s heroism and sacrifice that Odin grants Eric the “Thunderstrike”, a Mjolnir-like weapon (with a pre-existing history) which he can use to become Thunderstrike, the character you remember.
Thunderstrike spins out into his own series with DeFalco and Frenz, battles Bloodaxe, rejoins the Avengers and as legend has it, actually out-sells Thor. Marvel didn’t like that and supposedly worked to get it cancelled. I believe in the final issue, Thunderstrike is killed. Which is a shame because Eric Masterson is a GREAT character. Often disliked by hardcore Thor fans because he overtook Thor’s title for a time, I think he’s an important part of Thor’s history and deserves some respect.
Meanwhile, now restored to his own comic, Thor resumes as lead of the series. Unfortunately, the quality of the title began to slide pretty quickly. Jim Starlin did a number of unnecessarily long Infinity Gauntlet tie-in issues, followed by several Ron Marz Silver Surfer tie-in issues. Next was a low point in Thor history as Roy Thomas returned; it was ‘low’ because of IMO lack of quality—stories that just weren’t good. The art was by M.C. Wyman (I had to look that up) and it was obviously a 1990’s Rob Liefield-esque look, attempting to look like Image Comics and the X-comics, like many other poor Marvel comics of this era. Thor gained the worst costume of his career.
Thomas did a few stories that should have been left alone: he did a Kurse/Malekith story, and he brought back Red Norvell, the other Thor, who he introduced in 1980 (in an excellent, classic, all-time great Thor story). Neither was that good. Another thing he did that was completely not needed, was: restore Don Blake (tying this back into the original few paragraphs). In typical Roy-fashion, he put in some retcons that further complicated things and really didn’t make much sense; but it was here for the first time that Roy established that Don Blake was actually a person and NOT a creation of Odin. Thus, much like Eric Masterson & Thor had a symbiotic type relationship, Roy Thomas was saying that is what happened with Don Blake and Thor. The big question then is: where has Don Blake been since Walt Simonson’s run? Roy Thomas answered that (I forget where) and brought him back.
Ultimately, it was such a confusing story, and no one really cared, so I believe, the next writer simply chose to ignore it. Enter Warren Ellis and Mike Deodato Jr. for an incredible, yet very brief story arc from #491-494. I remember thinking at the time this was the best Thor had been in quite a long time, but before it even took off, the run was over. Here, Thor shed his crappy costume and was basically shirtless and capeless; Amora returned and for the first time ever in comics entered into a real relationship with Thor; Thor was estranged from Asgard and the series took on a new tone. Ellis quickly left but the excellent William Messner-Loeb came in to join Deodato. It appeared things were turning around…and then Heroes Reborn happened and shit all over the MU. And suddenly Thor, like Cap, Iron Man, the FF and the Avengers was gone.
But…Thor was the only one who didn’t get his own title by Lee and Liefield. It seems that things had gotten so bad and Thor sold so badly post-Walt that Liefield didn’t think it was worth doing a Thor title. So not missing a trick, Marvel turned Thor back into Journey into Mystery for several issues focusing on Thor’s supporting cast (while Heroes Reborn Thor appeared in Liefield’s Avengers), and Tom DeFalco came back to write about them. This is the “Lost Gods” story starring Sif, Balder, Odin, Red Norvel, The Warrior’s Three, Loki, Tyr, Hermod and a few others as Seth ultimately returns for a rematch from #400. During this time, the Lost Gods were stuck on Earth in human guises, but ultimately beat Seth and return to Asgard. I remember the last story being pretty vague on whether they go back to Asgard.
After Heroes Reborn ended, the heroes came back to Marvel and all got their own titles…except once again, Thor. However, he did come back in Avengers as Busiek reestablished Asgard and Thor once more. This led then to the Jurgens/Romita Jr. relaunch which you know Lardy. Here, Thor once again needed a human host to live (or something like that) while Odin was missing, and so Jake Olsen, a young paramedic (about mid-20’s I think), gained a relationship with Thor very similar to Eric Masterson and Thor had. Interestingly, Thor retained all of Don Blake’s old memories because Jake Olsen had great surgical skills that he had to hide. Whether Jake was an actual person or Thor in Jake’s body was somewhat ambiguous.
During Jurgen’s run first he did the Dark Gods story which restored Asgard at last to it’s normal status-quo pre-Walt, then he redid a lot of Walt’s stories but not as good and that was annoying. It was here, once again, he did a storyline like Walt where Odin and Surtur basically destroy each other AGAIN. Thor once more feels the need to become King of Asgard. It was here that super-long and super-boring King of Asgard story ran, where Thor becomes King, gets corrupted by power, Amora is queen and so and so forth. It’s not important because ultimately, at the story’s end, it was all wiped away from the timeline. How far back did the timeline go? Well, that is equally unclear.
What is clear is the comic was a mess and selling at its lowest point ever. Enter Mike Avon Oeming who came in for 6 issues with the intentions of doing only the best Ragnarok story ever. He brought back almost ever single supporting character and villain ever in Thor history (I’m talking about even Durok the Demolisher), and eventually every single character died. Thor eventually closes out Ragnarok and Asgard and all of its citizens die. What is important is Oeming made it a point that this was the last and final Ragnarok and the cycle was broken.
And that leads us to JMS’s run, where JMS makes it a point to also say there will be no further Ragnarok’s.
So, what did you miss? Not much. DeFalco & Frenz had some important points, but everything other than that, except for a very brief Ellis/Messner-Loebs/Deodato run, is worth skipping and has little impact. All you might be curious about is Roy Thomas’s bringing back Don Blake (which was confusing at best) and the Jake Olsen / Thor relationship, which ultimately was forgotten about and no longer applies post-Oeming.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Thanks, Cobester--very informative! I knew I could count on you!
I'm not entirely sure how long I stuck with DeFalco/Frenz, but it was at least a couple years. Sounds like they had a really, really long run. Frenz's art was probably the biggest turn-off for me at the time. I mean, you just can't get much farther from Walt's style thn that, eh? The stories weren't bad, but the art bothered me.
Nowadays, I think I have more appreciation for Ron Frenz and might look at the issues quite a bit differently if I reread them. That's the problem with following such a legendary run: it's pretty much guaranteed to disappoint fans of that run.
It also just felt too retro and Kirby-worshipping. I mean, they brought back the old costume, brought back Odin almost instantly and brought all the characters back to their Kirby designs (hell I didn't recognize Surtur!), among other rollbacks. In retrospect it was a lot more progressive than it appeared with some of the ideas they were throwing out, but that's how it is when you follow a legendary run like Simonson's.
As for Don Blake, it sounds like we really need a "Secret Origin of Don Blake" issue of Thor, but I doubt we'll ever get one. A lot of times, when a new status quo is established, it just is and no one ever bothers to explain it. For right now, I'm enjoying it anyway. It adds something to the book, and it gives Jane Foster a reason to be around. (Curious, though, about the Jane Foster and Sif thing with Blake and Thor you alluded to above--sounds kinky! )
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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Just a few points re: Cobalt's post: *Jake Olsen was killed. Thor was then turned *into* Olsen - but, as with Blake, was still "Thor with a 'modern' speech pattern and mortal body", rather than a Masterson/Thor or current-Blake/Thor relationship. Later Thor was split in two, but the "Olsen half" was still Thor, and the remaining "Thor half" went a bit crazy from being split. *The timeline was rewound twelve issues, from Thor #78 to #67, immediately before "the Olsen half" was killed. Future-Thor remerged the two. [Jurgens had planned to go on longer, and bring Future-Thor's son Magni back to the present to be "Thor" while Thor took on Odin's role fully, but was cut very short] *I believe that one of the complications with Thomas' Blake thing was that the "real Blake" had been in stasis since Thor took his place, and was killed by Loki's girlfriend, who left a duplicate in his place. It should also be noted that all the 2004 Avengers Handbook had to say about that was "Accounts claiming that Don Blake was a normal man... replaced by Thor are false" , JMS would later treat it like Blake hadn't been heard of since Odin got rid of him in Simonson's run (saying that he was sent to Oblivion by "the Odinspell"). *I believe DeFalco's claim that TS outsold Thor has been disproven.
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
quote:Originally posted by Chief Taylor: Thanks, Cobester--very informative! I knew I could count on you!
I'm not entirely sure how long I stuck with DeFalco/Frenz, but it was at least a couple years. Sounds like they had a really, really long run. Frenz's art was probably the biggest turn-off for me at the time. I mean, you just can't get much farther from Walt's style thn that, eh? The stories weren't bad, but the art bothered me.
Nowadays, I think I have more appreciation for Ron Frenz and might look at the issues quite a bit differently if I reread them. That's the problem with following such a legendary run: it's pretty much guaranteed to disappoint fans of that run.
It also just felt too retro and Kirby-worshipping. I mean, they brought back the old costume, brought back Odin almost instantly and brought all the characters back to their Kirby designs (hell I didn't recognize Surtur!), among other rollbacks. In retrospect it was a lot more progressive than it appeared with some of the ideas they were throwing out, but that's how it is when you follow a legendary run like Simonson's.
Yeah, DeFalco and Frenz were on the title for a LONG time, from #383 to #460, plus 25 issues of Thunderstrike and then a bunch of issues of A-Next, the title taking place in Spider-Girl’s timeline that also included an older version of Eric Masterson’s son and many of the supporting cast members from their Thor run. I think they had the second longest Thor run other than Kirby (though probably John Buscema did more issues than Frenz, just not consecutively).
I personally think they had a pretty solid run. Not as good as Walt, but certainly IMO a great run worth owning and rereading. I think you summed up exactly why many didn’t think so at the time, and that was because they were following a phenomenal, game-changing run. They never had a chance because they were only going to be compared to Walt’s stuff. I personally think the best Thor runs of all time are (1) Kirby and (2) Walt, but even though Kirby originated everything about the series, if someone made a case for Walt to have had the greatest run of all time, I certainly can see where they are coming from.
I’ve also grown to love Frenz’s artwork over time. It definitely was a bit more traditional and Kirby-esque (especially then, as he’s grown a bit overtime), but I thought it was solid and you can tell Frenz was pouring his heart into it. He also had Brett Breeding, one of the best inkers in comics. Breeding over Jurgen’s pencils on Superman was probably my favorite Superman art possibly of all time; he did an equally great job on Thor.
But you can see how you weren’t the only one to feel the way you did Lardy. Even though Walt had left, it was in Thor that Marvel chose to introduce the New Warriors for the first time. Yet by the end of D&F’s run, the title’s sales dropped drastically, and like I said, Thunderstrike would soon be beating the mean title.
One thing I agree on though is they undid a bit too much of what Walt had established, even though a lot of that was just on the surface (as Odin did not actually return to rule Asgard until after their run had ended). But something they did was build on Walt established: they kept Beta Ray Bill a part of the series, used Kurse, used Balder’s Squire (Andor? I’ve got to find his name), evolved the Heimdall/Amora relationship, evolved the Sif/Bill relationship, developed the human supporting cast Walt introduced, and other things. I think some of what they undid that was glaring was more visual, like you say, especially the looks of Thor, Balder, Surtur, etc.
quote:Originally posted by Chief Taylor: As for Don Blake, it sounds like we really need a "Secret Origin of Don Blake" issue of Thor, but I doubt we'll ever get one. A lot of times, when a new status quo is established, it just is and no one ever bothers to explain it. For right now, I'm enjoying it anyway. It adds something to the book, and it gives Jane Foster a reason to be around. (Curious, though, about the Jane Foster and Sif thing with Blake and Thor you alluded to above--sounds kinky! )
The Jane / Sif thing is actually an interesting bit of Thor tivia from the 70’s and a clear case of writer and editorial mishaps. As you know, Jane Foster was both Don and Thor’s love interest in the beginning, from his first appearance up until Thor #132. A few issues earlier, Jane had learned Don & Thor were one and the same, and now Thor was attempting to bring her to Asgard so she could marry him and take her place among the Gods. It was in this issue where unfortunately in Thor, it was shown how living in Asgard was too much for a mortal mind to handle and Jane was unable to take it. Thus, Odin erased her memory of it and she was phased out of the series. In this same issue, Sif is introduced. Hereafter, Sif becomes Thor’s love interest for the 2nd half of the Silver Age and beyond.
Jane showed up 2 more times in the Silver Age, in #172 and one other one (I think a Circus of Crime issue), but for the most part, Sif was in and Jane was out and that was the way it was. After Jack left Marvel and it was obvious Stan wasn’t really a part of the Thor creative process, there was a brief Neal Adams run and then a status quo was established with young Gerry Conway (I think he was only 19) and John Buscema. Conway was already a successful dime-store science fiction novelist and with his arrival the series took a heavy science-fiction approach. Many of the great Space Odyssey stories in Thor were by Conway.
Conway was also really great about developing the supporting cast (as also evidenced in his Spider-Man run). The cast expanded greatly over his 50 or so issues. Interestingly, near the end, Conway completely changed the supporting cast. It was here, somewhere in the 220’s that Hercules came back into the series and actually stuck around, basically becoming Thor’s partner. This was the era when every Marvel comic was a team-up or team comic. Daredevil gained the Black Widow, Cap already had the Falcon and now Thor basically gained Hercules for a few issues. The supporting cast focused more on Krista, a long forgotten little sister to the Valkrye Brunnhilda, and Sif. And then Gerry went even further and reintroduced Jane Foster for the first time. Except, unlike before, Jane was not in love with some guy named Keith Kincaid and living a great life, but actually she really missed and loved Don Blake and Thor again.
Gerry was on the cusp of developing a love triangle/quadrangle with Don & Thor / Sif / Jane and somewhere in the late 230’s (I think maybe #236), Jane was caught in a battle and on the verge of death…when Sif decided that she would give her life essence instead, to save Jane!
Note, this is almost exactly the same thing Thor did for Eric Masterson 20 years later. What happens is then Sif “kind of” dies, while Jane lives, albeit, with the life essence of Sif inside her. She isn’t actually able to change into Sif or anything, or hear her thoughts. In fact, we didn’t know what Gerry meant by it because three or so issues later, Gerry suddenly left the title! I know there was some editorial hubbub that Prof probably knows around why Gerry left.
What happens next is Roy Thomas comes on and almost completely ignores the Jane/Sif change, instead of focusing on actual storylines that needed to be tied up (like the first time Thor fought Seth). Roy has Bill Mantlo do an issue or two, and then finally a new writer is brought in, Len Wein.
Len hits the ground running hoping to tell the Thor stories he’s always wanted to, including a Zarko the Tomorrow Man story where they go into the future (which introduces the Time Twisters). Here, Len brings back the usual supporting cast (Warrior’s 3, Balder) but with Jane replacing Sif. What is interesting is that during this storyline, Jane shows a ferocious warrior’s spirit that they all speculate is the life essence of Lady Sif, and then actually uses Sif’s natural abilities to travel through space & time (another almost universally forgotten power Sif has always had).
For something like 12 issues then, Len doesn’t mention a word about Sif, and Jane just serves as Thor’s regular love interest. It must have driven readers nuts back then. Realizing he has to clear this up (and he obviously could care less about it), he finally tries to fit this subplot into his big story for #250, which was the third major Mangog story for Thor. I just read this two summer’s ago and it was confusing and vague enough where I can hardly remember what the whole gist of it was. But somehow at story’s end, Sif is restored back to normal, and it looks like Jane Foster has now died! And then in a throwaway sequence, Jane Foster is revealed to have lived and now sent back to Earth…where she is completely and utterly ignored for YEARS! I think maybe Odin had something to do with it, but it really made no sense.
What is so crazy is that the issue where Jane takes on Sif’s life essence is so confusing it doesn’t really make sense how it happened. And then the issue where it’s resolved is even more so. But in the middle, there were some serious hints of Jane taking on Sif’s personality and maybe gaining what she needed to join the Gods after-all, which was a really groovy subplot. Couple that in with large numbers of issues at a time where it isn’t even mentioned.
And it also shows a precedence for the Thor/Eric Masterson stuff.
Also interesting is that in this story, there is another ‘At last! The TRUE Origin of Don Blake!’ story in which another confusing element of the Don Blake/Thor origin comes into play. I don’t think the in larger picture it actually changes the above outline too much, but it shows you that once again another writer decided to play with it a bit. So while an “Origin of Don Blake” issue might be needed, know that they’ve had like 5 of them over the years and they’ve only ever served to make things worse, or at least more complicated.
(I think this Origin of Don Blake bit was used to help show how Sif was restored to life, or something…)
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Reboot: Just a few points re: Cobalt's post: *Jake Olsen was killed. Thor was then turned *into* Olsen - but, as with Blake, was still "Thor with a 'modern' speech pattern and mortal body", rather than a Masterson/Thor or current-Blake/Thor relationship. Later Thor was split in two, but the "Olsen half" was still Thor, and the remaining "Thor half" went a bit crazy from being split. *The timeline was rewound twelve issues, from Thor #78 to #67, immediately before "the Olsen half" was killed. Future-Thor remerged the two. [Jurgens had planned to go on longer, and bring Future-Thor's son Magni back to the present to be "Thor" while Thor took on Odin's role fully, but was cut very short] *I believe that one of the complications with Thomas' Blake thing was that the "real Blake" had been in stasis since Thor took his place, and was killed by Loki's girlfriend, who left a duplicate in his place. It should also be noted that all the 2004 Avengers Handbook had to say about that was "Accounts claiming that Don Blake was a normal man... replaced by Thor are false" , JMS would later treat it like Blake hadn't been heard of since Odin got rid of him in Simonson's run (saying that he was sent to Oblivion by "the Odinspell"). *I believe DeFalco's claim that TS outsold Thor has been disproven.
All good stuff, 'Boot! I knew I could count on you for some of the details.
The Thomas stuff with Blake I remember being almost immediately ignored.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Lots of fun, informative stuff coming out of our explorations of Thor's history. Honestly, with the character and his (literal) mythology, there is just limitless potential for this to be one of the best comics among the Big Two. I mean, on Thor, a writer can tell any kind of story he wants to and an artist can just go absolutely batshit and stretch his storytelling to its limits.
It's sad that so many creators have missed the mark over the character's long history of publication. From what I hear Fraction and Ferry have gotten off to kind of a slow start. A book like Thor...you've really gotta hit the ground running like Simonson did. It's a book that I really, REALLY want to like, but if it's gonna earn 4 of my hard-earned bucks every month, it better perform quickly! Otherwise, I'll pass.
As for Don Blake and Thor, I think the best possible way to marry the discrepancies with how that's been portrayed is to presume that the most generally-accepted explanation, that the two were always the same, is correct. The rub here is that over time Thor has developed a split personality from all the time he has spent in a mortal body living a mortal life. This became more pronounced after Thor died during Ragnarok and Blake continued to exist in some place outside time and space, to the extent that the personalities have in fact entirely separated and become distinct entities.
Still, though, the two are bound together and cannot both exist separately in the same place. Hence, the need for them to switch places and the necessity of them having a symbionic relationship.
Sounds decent to me, anyway, and makes more sense than just saying that Don Blake was in fact always a separate being from Thor when most of the evidence is to the contrary.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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