quote:Originally posted by Triplicate Kid: It seems (was it earlier on this very thread that it was pointed out?) that most 5YL fans consider it a retcon, and most of its detractors consider it a reboot. So a "retcon" argument can (I won't say should) be taken as a defense of 5YL.
Okay, I'm gonna officially retract my earlier assertion that the PU Superboy "fix" was a reboot. It was definitely a retcon--a very, VERY damaging retcon--but a retcon, nonetheless.
I will not back off, however, from my assertion that the Superboy retcon was the first domino to fall which allowed all the further butchering of Legion continuity and reboots possible in the first place.
The 5YL characters were the same characters as before, but admittedly, you had to fudge a lot of details in their history to make it work.
Again, I'd like to point to LSH #5 (Volume 4/5YL) and commend it for the way it handled cutting Superboy out. At least we had a story with an in-continuity explanation for the changes. It was lovingly crafted and, IMO, one of the very best Legion stories ever written, even considering what it had to do. If you're being forced to retcon something out, it was nice that TMK crafted a beautiful story to give the old continuity an appropriate sendoff.
I don't know if many can look at that story who loved Superboy, knowing the damage it did to the continuity, and still recognize it as a great achievement. I, for one, can.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Triplicate Kid: It seems (was it earlier on this very thread that it was pointed out?) that most 5YL fans consider it a retcon, and most of its detractors consider it a reboot. So a "retcon" argument can (I won't say should) be taken as a defense of 5YL.
Okay, I'm gonna officially retract my earlier assertion that the PU Superboy "fix" was a reboot. It was definitely a retcon--a very, VERY damaging retcon--but a retcon, nonetheless.
I will not back off, however, from my assertion that the Superboy retcon was the first domino to fall which allowed all the further butchering of Legion continuity and reboots possible in the first place.
The 5YL characters were the same characters as before, but admittedly, you had to fudge a lot of details in their history to make it work.
Again, I'd like to point to LSH #5 (Volume 4/5YL) and commend it for the way it handled cutting Superboy out. At least we had a story with an in-continuity explanation for the changes. It was lovingly crafted and, IMO, one of the very best Legion stories ever written, even considering what it had to do. If you're being forced to retcon something out, it was nice that TMK crafted a beautiful story to give the old continuity an appropriate sendoff.
I don't know if many can look at that story who loved Superboy, knowing the damage it did to the continuity, and still recognize it as a great achievement. I, for one, can.
I think you nailed it, Lard Boy. While Triplicate Kid summarized it perfectly, he still left the idea that 5YL was a retcon as an opinion, while for me this is not an opinion. It is a fact. And Lard Boy gave the best answer as to why: because they tried to make it work without disregarding history. You may hate it and say it didn't work well. But you can't deny there was a palette of 30+ years in the background.
As for when things started to crumble, then it might be an opinion. For some, it was the Pocket Universe, for others it was the 5YL itself. For me, it was Legion On The Run, but that's because I am not a ultra master continuity buff. I like stories and I like development. LOTR was the opposite. And, being it an awful piece of trash, all retcons and partial reboots wouldn't help it.
And, as we just saw, the first "reboot" was Supergirl's presence in LSH!!!
[ June 04, 2008, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Ricardo ]
From: Brasil | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Triplicate Kid: [qb]It seems (was it earlier on this very thread that it was pointed out?) that most 5YL fans consider it a retcon, and most of its detractors consider it a reboot. So a "retcon" argument can (I won't say should) be taken as a defense of 5YL.
Okay, I'm gonna officially retract my earlier assertion that the PU Superboy "fix" was a reboot. It was definitely a retcon--a very, VERY damaging retcon--but a retcon, nonetheless.
My point is that the 5YG resides completely within the Post Crisis DC Universe, so therefore they can't be the original which resided in the Pre Crisis DC Universe. Regardless of what any one on the Legion title did.
Valor? He was given his name by the Post Crisis Superman...when he was in the 20th century, he was in the 20th Century of the Post Crisis DC Universe.
Valor was on a team right there in the Post Crisis DC Universe that was called the L.E.G.I.O.N.
Mon-EL wasn't on any team ever called the L.E.G.I.O.N....and he wasn't called Valor either.
Brainiac 5? He's not descended from the same guy the Pre Crisis Brainy was...he's descended from the same guy as the ZH Brainy.
And the original stories, they did not all happen and even the ones that did, were altered in a way such as they could only have occurred in the Post Crisis DC Universe.
After all...the multiverse didn't exist for the 5YG Legion...same as every other Post Crisis character/team.
Saying the PU Superboy and 5YG are retcons is like saying the Crisis on Infinite Earths was a retcon.
And that's not the original Batman either...it's not even the Silver Age Batman.
[ June 04, 2008, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I know everybody hates LOtR but could it be because the tale was never allowed to run it's course? Zero Hour was a grand fun ride full of historic references and one wierd sprockin' storyline but in the process they threw the Legion away along with whatever ideas the Bierbaums had for our adult Legionnaires.
I've always suspected that they had some greater plan and that it might have been the eventual introduction of the Adult Legion. I dunno..
From: Smallville Sector : Greater Metropolis | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: I don't see why they couldn't... TMK were doing what the bonehead then-dictators at DC were FORCING them to do, not what THEY wanted to do...
FWIW, I don't blame the Zero Hour crew for what they did either...it's pretty obvious that's what DC wanted all along, the full restart, and the only reason it took as long as it did for it to come about was because Giffen had enough pull to stave off DC's relaunch of continuity. Unfortunately, the damage was done...like I said earilier, it's pretty amazing he even attempted to save it...I'd say he went above and beyond the call of duty on that one.
He did a hell of a lot more than Paul Levitz did to save it.
No...Giffen definitely tried to save the Legion, he tried to save it's history. Beyond all doubt he tried to save it.
Now he tried to save them so he could kill maim or write out about 50% of the original cast(at least on a temporary basis)..and that I didn't like...but that's another argument....and I'll concede that sounds like it too was made worse by corporate meddling.
[ June 04, 2008, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
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Dan Jurgens - and most probably Mark Waid -, who were the "Geoff Johns" of that period, gave LSH a blank sheet with ZH. The idea was to make LSH as big as the X-Men (I remember an interview at that time saying it in those words). They said that they wanted to RETELL some stories, but they wouldn't follow it. This was impossible for 5YL - the maximum they could do was to change some of the characters in a certain story. But never "wipe it out".
That's what I am talking about. It's not a defense of TMK or McCraw. It's a "defense" of what is a reboot and what is a retcon. [/QB]
IMO, I don't think Jurgens or Waid wanted to do it. DC wanted it...and they tried to pressure Giffen into doiing it as well...he fought it, but the Superman policy undermined virtually every thing he was trying to do.
Registered: Mar 2006
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quote: The preboot LSH v4 is what [Giffen] described as "the one story I wish I could have finished up right." The young Batch SW6 would be the real Legion, while the adults would be revealed as clones. He said the "hat trick" rumor is "dead on true": that's where the writers would randomly select some characters (as if drawn from a hat) to die in a massive battle between the old and young teams. The senior team would then leave United Planets space, and call themselves THE OMEGA MEN in their own book.
And...
quote:Originally posted by Superboy: IMO, I don't think Jurgens or Waid wanted to do it. DC wanted it...and they tried to pressure Giffen into doiing it as well...he fought it, but the Superman policy undermined virtually every thing he was trying to do.
quote:Waid: "...all the continuity changes and flip-flops have made the Legion's history an unsalvageable mess. Continuity wasn't "in bad shape." It was Chernobyl. This revision wasn't a decision made lightly; KC Carlson and Tom McCraw and I spent literally hundreds of man-hours over the past year trying to come up with a less drastic solution to the continuity problems than simply wiping the slate clean, and we could *not find one.* [...] I'm sorry if I sound cranky, but this wasn't an editorial fiat from DC. This drastic change was my choice, and DC chose to back me."
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Dan Jurgens - and most probably Mark Waid -, who were the "Geoff Johns" of that period, gave LSH a blank sheet with ZH. The idea was to make LSH as big as the X-Men (I remember an interview at that time saying it in those words). They said that they wanted to RETELL some stories, but they wouldn't follow it. This was impossible for 5YL - the maximum they could do was to change some of the characters in a certain story. But never "wipe it out".
That's what I am talking about. It's not a defense of TMK or McCraw. It's a "defense" of what is a reboot and what is a retcon.
IMO, I don't think Jurgens or Waid wanted to do it. DC wanted it...and they tried to pressure Giffen into doiing it as well...he fought it, but the Superman policy undermined virtually every thing he was trying to do. [/QB]
Zero Hour was built considering that whatever came after Crisis did not solve the "complications" within DC Comics. Giffen was long gone - in fact, I believe he was out of comics altogether at that point (his JLI was history and he had left LSH 2 years earlier). Byrne had also left quite a while before. So, no, I don't think it was the same thing at all.
From: Brasil | Registered: May 2008
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quote: Most folk 'round these parts know I have no fondness for the Legion. I was "present at conception", having read the story that introduced them when it was first published. My younger self -- often the butt of cruel tricks played by the other kids at school -- instantly hated these punks from the future for the trick they played on Superboy. My older self has never quite been able to get over it. I have other reasons for disliking the Legion, tho. I have watched as they became almost the Poster People for things that have gone wrong in comics over the past several decades. As characters introduced as kids barely into their teens turned into Babes and Hunks, and started getting all grim and matrimonial. For a series set in the future, and therefore not bound in any way to real time, this is absolutely absurd. But, of course, it's hard to draw realistic kids, and much more fun to draw chicks with big hooters
Here's this fool explaining why the Legion as no longer popular...completely ignoring the fact that his retcon is the reason:
quote:The Legion has the same problem. Science Fiction has its followers, and I count myself as one of them, but I would not want a steady diet of science fiction set only in the 30th Century. Every so often I need something I can connect to more directly. The Legion rarely provides this. Fine, for people who like that sort of thing. But not really a foundation on which a long-standing franchise could be built. (Would you be reading Superman's adventures today, if he'd stayed on Krypton and gotten the same powers? Truth, justice, and the Kryptonian Way?)
#$%#$% you eliminated their come back to Earth aspect...Superman was their trip home. You eliminated it...and then you killed even the partial trip home, and then you killed the entire planet or should I say Pocket Universe that was "home".
Still not enough of Johnny Boy? Here are some more choice comments about the Legion and it's fans:
quote: Even if I liked the Legion, I don't think I would be much interested in doing the series on any kind of regular basis. It's nothing like the way I see "the Future" -- plus Legion fans are among the most anal ------ I mean, the most devoted on the planet. Working on a Legion series would be, well, work!
Here's @zzhat again showing that he just doesn't get it:
quote:
Big problem for me, with a series like the Legion, is that it is unconnected from the rest of the "universe
%@#$%@#%...you disconnected it from the rest of the Universe...
Seriously...this dude is the stupidest dude to ever write a comic...the 9 year olds in the Adventure Letter Columns were smarter.
I digress...
quote: I can watch -- and thoroughly enjoy -- a movie like STAR WARS or a TV series like STAR TREK, which are separated from the world I know by time, space, and a lot of other things shared by the Legion --- but the difference is what I am watching in SW and ST is actors -- human beings -- who provide the "bridge" that allows me to connect with the characters. Both series have been animated, and as moving drawings, both series have left me cold. (Is it just a coincidence no STAR TREK comic book has ever really taken off?) Set in the future, the Legion lacks, for me, the kind of eviceral link that other superhero stories have. This is why the only time the Legion has come even close to working for me was when they were occasional guest stars in Superboy stories.
So why did you remove Superboy then you #@$%#@$%@$#?
quote: I've mentioned, tho, that it was not just that they were mean to Superboy that put me off the Legion. That undoubtedly stacked the deck, but as a child who liked a degree of order in the universe, I did not like it when they began alternating with Bizarro in ADVENTURE COMICS (especially since they kept the Bizarro artist, not one of my favorites) and picked up their own part of the letter column with what struck me as the very bad title of "Bits of Legionnaire Business", an awkward "twist" on "Bits of Bizarro Business".
Face it -- for me, the Legion was strictly D.O.A.*
*In one of those "What Were They Thinking??" moments, the editors managed to dig the Legion's grave even deeper for me, when, in SUPERMAN 149, "The Death of Superman", they chose to show Legionnair's passing by Superman's casket to "pay their respects" after Luthor kills him. "You bastards," I thought, in suitable early Sixties kid language, "you knew this was going to happen! Why didn't you tell him!!"
quote: How did the Superboy/Legion/Time Trapper arc come about?
JB: One of the central points of my "back to the basics" approach to the Superman reboot was that he began his career as an adult -- so no Superboy. This, I knew, would have a rather profound effect on the Legion, whose history was tied directly to Superboy, and at several editorial meetings I brought up this point often, suggesting different ways in which it could be dealt with. (Several times I referenced a book I'd had as a kid called "Young Robin Hood". This told the adventures of Robin, Marion, Little John, et al when they were all around 10 years old, and long, long before they "actually" met. I suggested the Legion had formed based on legends of Superman's adventures as a boy -- adventures the Legion members would be surprised to discover had not actually happened.) I was told, basically "don't worry, we have it all figured out!"
Then about six months into the project I got a panicked call from the Superman editor: "This reboot messes up the Legion!!"
"Yes? I thought we all understood this?"
"No! My god! We have to do something!!" And thus was born the Pocket Universe and the story that "explained" the Legion's Superboy connection.
Translation: He wanted to reboot the Legion
And finally...we come a full circle, and even John Byrne admits it was a bad idea:
quote:
Why did JB remove Superboy from continuity with the MAN OF STEEL reboot?
JB: There's hardly a job out there that I would not tweak in some way if I could. As you may know, I dumped Superboy from the Superman mythos largely because I did not see him as a necessary character, and DC had agreed to allow me to show Superman "learning the ropes" after the reboot. Unfortunately, once the contracts were signed, the backed down on this and insisted we do MAN OF STEEL so that Superman would be "up to speed" by the time the new first issue came out. (Eventually I would realize that they wanted Superman rebooted without him actually being, you know, rebooted. Odd, indeed, since I had said from the start I was prefectly prepared to work from within continuity, and the reboot was their idea.) So, since I did not have a Superman who was still "figuring it out", I wish I had had Superboy to fill that role. (2/21/2005)
And yeah...the PU Superboy story that rendered the entire Legion morons was also his idea.
Want to know why I am much more optimistic about Johns that anything that came before? Because Johns has a brain...Byrne does not.
Byrne considered the most third most successful Superhero in Comics history at that time, as a meaningless character.
Giffen didn't do this...he's not that stupid.
Waid actually went after Byrne at a comic con one time for what he did. Waid didn't do it either.
My most fervent wish is that Byrne spends the rest of his career doing nothing but comissions for Adventure Era Legion fans. If he wasn't stupid...none of this would have happened.
DC wass stupid too? DC aren't Legion fans...DC didn't realize what was going to happenthey don't pay attention to the Legion...Byrne by his own words did, he kenw exactly what it was going to do...he deserves the scorn he gets from Legion Fans.
[ June 04, 2008, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
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Dan Jurgens - and most probably Mark Waid -, who were the "Geoff Johns" of that period, gave LSH a blank sheet with ZH. The idea was to make LSH as big as the X-Men (I remember an interview at that time saying it in those words). They said that they wanted to RETELL some stories, but they wouldn't follow it. This was impossible for 5YL - the maximum they could do was to change some of the characters in a certain story. But never "wipe it out".
That's what I am talking about. It's not a defense of TMK or McCraw. It's a "defense" of what is a reboot and what is a retcon.
IMO, I don't think Jurgens or Waid wanted to do it. DC wanted it...and they tried to pressure Giffen into doiing it as well...he fought it, but the Superman policy undermined virtually every thing he was trying to do.
Zero Hour was built considering that whatever came after Crisis did not solve the "complications" within DC Comics. Giffen was long gone - in fact, I believe he was out of comics altogether at that point (his JLI was history and he had left LSH 2 years earlier). Byrne had also left quite a while before. So, no, I don't think it was the same thing at all. [/QB]
DC brass wanted Giffen to do a full reboot...
I posted the comments by Giffen earlier in this thread where he talks about the fact that's what they wanted...they wanted it even after the 5YG book had begun. And that's why much of what he wantd to do was undermined....DC wanted ish #5 of the 5YG to be a complete relaunch.
[ June 04, 2008, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:I posted the comments by Giffen earlier in this thread where he talks about the fact that's what they wanted...they wanted it even after the 5YG book had begun. And that's why much of what he wantd to do was undermined.
I know that, but Zero Hour was pure Dan and Waid. Maybe they did what DC has always wanted to do, but again, it wasn't Byrne or Carlin at all at that point.
I don't share so much hate for Byrne. He is definitely a writer above average for me and it is funny he talks like that about LSH when his NextMen project actually started in 2112, a time travel book...
As for what he did to LSH, we may hate him forever, but maybe (and now I'll probably anger most people here) if it wasn't for such a narrow palette, TMK wouldn't have had produced such an experimental run. Maybe.
From: Brasil | Registered: May 2008
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posted
Dan Jurgens is an old school Legion fan...you can see letters from him in old issues of Superboy and the Legion(along with Tom Bierbaum)...it wasn't his idea. He just carried it out.
DC wanted all the stuff fixed or at least restarted, and Jurgens gave them that.
At least what he did makes sense...even if you don't like it.
History was changed and the entire thing started over again.
IT wasn't Waid's idea...it wasn't the Bierbaum's idea. It wadn't Jurgens idea...it wasn't Giffen's idea.
These guys are fans of the original Legion...that's a big reason why they're even in comics.
Those are just the guys with the bullseyes on their foreheads.
Registered: Mar 2006
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