quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders:Sean/Shvaughn was not symptathetic? Well, your mileage may vary.
That is indeed the case. I found hir weak, whiny, emotionally starved, shallow, and creepy (ze was a stalker, for God's sake!)
quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders:I also found Sean sympathetic and even heroic in making the final decision to be true to himself. I can't understand how he would have been more acceptable to you if he had reverted to being a woman. That's not who "he" was.
Perhaps I should have been more specific -- I wanted hir to be written as Levitz had written hir, with no differences other than ze happened to be a transsexual, NOT as the basket case I described above. That would have made it even more beautiful when Jan accepted hir for hirself. Then Profem becomes available again, ze could go back to being as she really was, and they lived happily ever after.
quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders:[qb]It's laudable that, as a transfriendly person, you care about how they are perceived in comics. However, why should we care what a transophobe thinks? Such people have already made up their minds.
Because, as naive at it may sound, I believe that some transophobes and homophobes are capable of changing for the better.
posted
But that's not who Sean in the 5YL-verse *was*. He didn't become Shvaughn because he thought he was in the wrong body, he did it because he felt he didn't live up to the 'men were men' culture he perceived on his home planet. Thinking that the man he was obsessed with (Jan) would only be attracted to a woman, he began taking Pro-fem.
Sean/Shvaughn was a transexual only in definition... I don't think he self-identified in any psychologically sound way as a woman. If transitioning in the future still included medical or psychiatric involvement, I doubt he ever would have become Shvaughn. Instead, it was all black market and underground... though the product was readily available on some store or pharmacy's shelf, wasn't it? Hmmmm.
I agree that this story is a horrible example of an examination of a transsexual- this particular transexual is such a singular case. For me, it worked on many other levels, though.
Sigh... and I swore I wasn't going to comment on this particular issue again. I've chimed in on it every time it gets discussed. Not sure why.
From: Knoxville, TN | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders:Sean/Shvaughn was not symptathetic? Well, your mileage may vary.
That is indeed the case. I found hir weak, whiny, emotionally starved, shallow, and creepy (ze was a stalker, for God's sake!)
All of these things you say are true. But heroes in fiction always have to go down before they go up. They always have to confront the worst side of themselves before they emerge as better people. (This is also true for a lot of real people, by the way.)
Your point about transophobes and homophobes changing their minds is well taken, although I don't know if anything TMK might have done could have accomplished that. If they'd written a glowing tale about transgenderism, it might not have been perceived that way. As our debate demonstrates, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
quote:I'm not saying that's who ze was. I'm saying that's who I wanted hir to be.
Ah, well . . . if we could only get what we want. I wanted the Legion's original history with Superboy to remain intact. I wanted Mon-El to be called Mon-El, instead of Valor, etc.
The interesting thing about not getting either is that it forced me to look at TMK for what it was, not for what I wanted it to be.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: Ah, well . . . if we could only get what we want. I wanted the Legion's original history with Superboy to remain intact. I wanted Mon-El to be called Mon-El, instead of Valor, etc.
That's what I love about fan fiction, it makes it possible to have what I want even if it'll never be the "official" version.
posted
Like Mystery Lad, I was reluctant to jump in on this conversation. My thoughts and feelings are posted elsewhere, and we always seem to leave this discussion as entrenched in our points of view as when we go in. But here I am... I can't resist an opportunity to try to defend this story one more time.
The interesting thing about this latest discussion is that it makes clear how differently each of us viewed Shvaughn after reading the story.
For me, I viewed her as a stronger person and with much more respect after the story. There was nothing in the story that detracted from her earlier portrayals by Levitz. From the moment she was introduced during the Earthwar saga, she came across as a professional and competent science police officer. Her tears and heartache during the transformation, in a time of devastating war, while dealing with the intense emotions of an intimate relationship, in no way changed the competent person she was.
It made her a little more complex. It meant that she was dealing with some things that weren't apparent to us on the surface. She never let those things show or impact her ability to perform her job in all those years. That added to her strength in my eyes.
I did not view her as a stalker. My read has always been, she had a teenage crush on a celebrity AND she became a woman, AND she pursued a career with the science police. In the course of her career, she met the object of her teenage crush and entered into a relationship with him. I never read it as she had a teenage crush on Element Lad SO she became a woman, then she joined the science police SO she could have a relationship with him. Like all of us, she made a series of decisions in her life for a variety of reasons. Her crush on Jan was a factor in all this, but not necessarily the only factor or most important factor.
I feel comfortable referring to Shvaughn with female pronouns. She lived the majority of her adult life as a woman by choice. If it were only because of a charade to be with Jan, it wouldn't have held up all those years. Charades just don't last that long. She was comfortable being a science police officer, a woman and being in a relationship, even a distant one without traditional strings or trappings, with Jan. The war threatened all of the things she was and the life that she had become comfortable with.
I don't recall if the story stated clearly that she was choosing to remain Sean after the gender reversal or why. I assume that it would have taken time for Profem to become readily available again. She also learned that Jan was gay during the story. Maybe she wanted to stay a man so they could experiment with sex at that level for a while. She went on to become Chief of the Science Police as Sean, so there was no professional censure for being a transgender person. That was a positive.
There does appear to be some evolution in thought on transgender issues since I was younger. Or so some of my younger friends who describe themselves as "gender queer" tell me. In my day, a transexual was viewed as a person who felt that they were in the body of the wrong gender. The fix was ultimately to transform the body into that of the correct gender. It was linear with a very specific goal. My understanding of the gender queer movement is that it rejects the concept of two genders, homosexuality, and bisexuality in favor of multiple genders existing on a spectrum and pan sexuality. It's a view that embraces a more fluid idea of gender and sexuality, with a lot of moving back and forth within a lifetime. There is nothing linear about it. Now, as someone who identifies as gay, and who wears my homosexuality like a comfortable old coat, this concept is difficult for me. If one were to embrace it, though, it really wouldn't make a difference whether Sean stayed Sean or went back to being Shvaughn. The concept of Profem would make multiple lifetime transformations easier.
Another thing I want to weigh in on. Many critics of Shvaughn jump on the fact that she was dishonest with Jan. Jan revealed to Shvaughn in the story that he was gay. Doesn't that mean they were deceiving one another, if it was important? Doesn't that make them even? Why is Shvaughn railed on for being the deceptive one?
Any way, I've chimed in on the debate again. I guess I should let you all know how much I loved the Swan and Doran art again before I go. Great thread, Dev.
[ January 20, 2010, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Jerry ]
-------------------- No regrets, Coyote.
From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I wasn't sure whether a Lord of Chaos qualified as a wizard or not. In any case, it's mighty convenient that Nabu sent Jo back where he belonged, don't you think?
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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In my mind it could have been three things happening with that...Keith wanted to use Nabu in the past, they had no other way to get him back so they thought "Nabu can do it", or Editorial wanted them to tie some "known" character to the series.
Now Keith has worked on Dr. Fate in the past, so he is at least familiar with the character. Tom adds nothing about this in his blog about the issue.
The real reasons for the convenience of the return is probably lost to time...heh.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Jerry: Any way, I've chimed in on the debate again. I guess I should let you all know how much I loved the Swan and Doran art again before I go. Great thread, Dev.
Glad you chimed in. The more the merrier. I love seeing all kinds of opinions on things that are brought up here...I love varied opinions.
Swan and Doran art was very nice. Having met both artists, it was really cool to see their collaboration on thiis issue.
Thanks for the compliment, but I have to say that the more people that chime in makes it even better.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Jerry, thanks for being a voice of reason and providing a lot of valuable insight into the character of Sean/Shvaughn.
I found this particularly helpful:
quote:I did not view her as a stalker. My read has always been, she had a teenage crush on a celebrity AND she became a woman, AND she pursued a career with the science police. In the course of her career, she met the object of her teenage crush and entered into a relationship with him. I never read it as she had a teenage crush on Element Lad SO she became a woman, then she joined the science police SO she could have a relationship with him. Like all of us, she made a series of decisions in her life for a variety of reasons. Her crush on Jan was a factor in all this, but not necessarily the only factor or most important factor.
I feel comfortable referring to Shvaughn with female pronouns. She lived the majority of her adult life as a woman by choice. If it were only because of a charade to be with Jan, it wouldn't have held up all those years. Charades just don't last that long. She was comfortable being a science police officer, a woman and being in a relationship, even a distant one without traditional strings or trappings, with Jan. The war threatened all of the things she was and the life that she had become comfortable with.
I think it's worth highlighting that Shvaughn was a competent officer and had lived as a woman for many years, and that she had encountered the object of her earlier crush by happenstance. This certainly does make her character much more complex.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Dev Em: Very convenient indeed.
In my mind it could have been three things happening with that...Keith wanted to use Nabu in the past, they had no other way to get him back so they thought "Nabu can do it", or Editorial wanted them to tie some "known" character to the series.
Now Keith has worked on Dr. Fate in the past, so he is at least familiar with the character. Tom adds nothing about this in his blog about the issue.
The real reasons for the convenience of the return is probably lost to time...heh.
I suppose Jo had to return to the future some time, and Nabu accomplished that task as well as any plot device--particularly since Jo had been stranded in the past for eight issues now.
But the story still bothers me. It could be because Jo's relationship with Asherya is so easily brushed aside. A large part of the story is spent in establishing them as a couple. The dialogue on page 16, for example, seems very real. Asherya got Jo to open up about Tinya.
And then, BAM! She's a Lord of Chaos. She dies. Jo gets sent back to the future. End of story.
Jo is never shown mourning for her after he returns. Even if he were convinced that she wasn't what she appeared to be (as suggested by her impersonation of Tinya just before she dies), how could he compartmentalize and dispose of those emotions so quickly?
For that matter, why did Nabu wait so long--after Jo had fallen in love and gone through the pain of losing her--to send him home?
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
It definitely seemed to have an abrupt ending.
The only thing I can figure...and not sure if this is what they intended...is that Jo realized that he was really using her as a substitute for Tinya and was in turn finally mourning Tinya. Given the ending where he finally allows himself to cry for her, I think that is what they were implying, but I may just be hopeful that they actually had some sort of plan for all of that.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:I wasn't sure whether a Lord of Chaos qualified as a wizard or not. In any case, it's mighty convenient that Nabu sent Jo back where he belonged, don't you think?
Well, if a Lord of Order (Nabu) qualifies as a wizard, then I imagine a Lord of Chaos does.
In any case, yes, it's convenient. Still, it was well-executed, I find it hard to mind too much. In fact, the inconvenience of the earlier situation...finding himself on Khundia, then travelling to Rimbor to find nothing there and then heading to Earth, whereas a more hackneyed story would have him on Earth from the very beginning...made the "convenience" of the ending less bothersome to me.
-------------------- Chaim Mattis Keller ckeller@nyc.rr.com Legion-Reference-File Lad
From: New York, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 2003
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