posted
I feel like I've been through this before--like three times!
I'm not surprised by anything DC does anymore other than being pleasantly surprised when I pick up quality work.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Unfortunately, Cobie, that quality work is getting scarce at the Big Two. Hype and promotion in the media don't make for good reading although it does make for good sales.
From: Utah | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by veryvery: that would actually please me a great deal. perhaps something happened when i used my mind powers on dan didio at ECCC over the weekend. if this happens, i take full credit for this, is what i'm saying. but wasn't his term supposed to not be infinite anyways? wasn't it ahhh.. 16 issues or something anyways? do they mean "after his 16 issues" or "dropped right now"?
for people concerned about this legion dying forever, from what i understood from the newsarama interviews geoff johns did on legion of threeworlds, it would end with the legion being a compression of all three into one to form a new one.
in other words, we might get querl from one legion, cos* from another, saturn girl from the third. at least that how i understood what he was saying!
*btw, another thing that makes me cry about shooter's writing is his dropping of things from the previous storyline. like.. i dunno, finding cosmic boy.
as long as manapul's still on it i'm happy!
but i don't think it's true, as much as i wish it was.
I think you are mistaken. In no interview Johns has implied there will be one amalgam of Legions. What is clear from his interviews is that the 3 versions are from different worlds. So, I doubt very much that the fate of the LSH is not tied to Final Crisis big time, as Johns' last interview has pointed out very clearly. If one of each survives, we can always get a different one from one of the other 40-something worlds available. Why not LSH from Kingdom Come? In fact, most people were in shock when Giffen mentioned the "hat trick" during his run. Editorial vetoed that then.
I also don't think Shooter has dropped Cos plot. He has mentioned in a couple of issues that Cos is indeed missing. And I am pretty sure his disappearance has got to do with Time Trapper and Final Crisis: L3W.
Oh, and Action Legion IS NOT THE ORIGINAL LEGION. That would be TMK's Legion.
Hiya Ricardo, welcome to the board. Nice to see you again (it is you, isn't it? From way back on LSH List?)
My opinion about a possible Amagamation: I never thought much of Giffens Hat Trick idea. I believe it to be one of the few bad ideas of the TMK era, which I still love and was thrilled about again rereading it recently.
I believe that an Amagamation Legion would alienate all the Legion fans - Classic lovers, Reboot lovers, Threeboot lovers. TMK has vanished to an Elseworld long ago anyway (greatest Elseworld ever, isn't this something?)
So it would give Legion fans something everybody would probably hate for all different reasons. This can't be the way. If it actually IS the plan, I consider this the definite end of the Legion. The book would probably not survive this.
Until, of course, they would start a Fourboot in 2012 or so...
From: Bamberg, Germany | Registered: Feb 2007
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by veryvery: for people concerned about this legion dying forever, from what i understood from the newsarama interviews geoff johns did on legion of threeworlds, it would end with the legion being a compression of all three into one to form a new one.
That's what I expect. Superboy-Prime will butcher 2/3rds of the Legions of Three Worlds and we'll get some bastard collage of unrelated characters who've never even heard of each other.
So we'll get the thrill of watching 40 or so Legionnaires be decapitated, punched through or cut in half by 'heat vision,' every single one of them *someone's* favorite character (or interpretation of a character) and only people who pretty much loathe the Legion and everything it's ever stood for will enjoy watching a version of *Superboy* kill off his childhood friends, who, in some distant fantasy continuity, helped him discover what it meant to be a hero.
[sarc] Woo. I can hardly wait. [/sarc]
Registered: Aug 2006
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I believe Mr. Shooter has the ability to write for ANY version or amalgamation of the Legion, and I hope he stays on and takes the challenge of writing more interesting tales of the Legion no matter what the Lo3W series brings.
I'd like the current creative team to spend at least 3 years on the title, or more if they like.
-------------------- "My dance card was getting fuller than a contestant's at a Jandan shurg-off." - Exnihil, The Lost Klordny
From: Frederick, MD | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Jerry: [QUOTE] I was a kid when it was published, and sadly, didn't bat an eye at it or realize how disturbing it was until years later. Do you think that Grell's artwork made it made it appear more graphic and brutal than Shooter imagined it? Not that that excuses it, but I've come to assign as much responsibilty to Grell for the insensetivity as Shooter.
ah, knowing how detailed dc's scripts are, i would say that this is shooter's responsibility. also, it's not like the writer doesn't see the pages before they're handed off to an inker, the writer ALWAYS looks at pages before they're done to make sure there's no confusion (i can tell you cute stories with translation problems with overseas/english-as-a-second-language artists). also, it goes by an editor as well.
so, having worked as an editor, i would really assign responsibility to the editor and the writer... but as an artist, i personally feel it's an artist's job to speak up when something is inappropriate. If the artist doesn't want to talk to the writer directly, they can talk to the editor and then there's more people to talk to if that doesn't work out. it's just like any job where there's something shady going on.
now... THAT said, sometimes i think even an INKER or a COLORIST is at fault for the presentation of a scene! particularly breast depiction seems to change somewhere between a penciller and the finished product.
anyways... i blame shooter and the editor because i dislike him and I'm 5.
I can't add much to what Veryvery said, except that I think the editor (I think it was Murray Boltinoff) was the one who made the final judgement call. Ideally, he could have and should have told Shooter and Grell to re-write and re-draw the scene without the offensive content. Unfortunately, that's not what happened.
quote:Originally posted by Ricardo: ]Well, if that is the case, you are wrong. Byrne's MOS happened when LSH v4 was already on issue 3.
Actually....you're wrong. No version anything of the Legion was on issue #3 when the Man Of Steel came out.
The Man of Steel came out in 1986...the first issue of version V4 Didn't come out until 1989, 3 years later.
And V4 wasn't tied into anything, especially after they retconned Superboy out...little details like, oh, the original appearance of the team, never happened...and other little details like, oh, the original appearance of Mordru couldn't have happened either...not to mention things like the complete and total alteration of Brainiac 5's entire life as a Legionaire.
No...V4 is at best, concerning the original, a mutiltated, gutted version of original Legion set in a completely dystopian future(as opposed to the Utopian of the original Legion), on a completely different Earth, in a completely different Universe.
The original Legion was on Earth 1 and interacted with it's heroes and was part of it's time line.
V4 was on Earth only, the Post Crisis Earth, and interacted with it's heroes and was part of it's timeline.
Different DC Universe. Different Earth....it's right there in LSH V3 #37(which was some 28 issues before V4 #3) when the Legion meet the Post Crisis Superman and are established as being a part of his Earth, his timeline.
The orginal Legion, they met and knew the Superman of Earth 1, not as Superboy, but as Superman as well...the V4 Legion never met the Superman of Earth 1.
I mean saying it the V4 was the original Legion would mean the original Legion was the first Post Crisis book published by DC...publishd some 25 years before the actual Crisis...
LOL, the original Legion had Krypto...I don't see him as being a big tying point to the Post Crisis Earth.
quote:And as any reader can notice, v4 had a retcon, but not a reboot.
I'd say removing the central character of the books first 20 years, was pretty massive...
I know most fans of later Legions don't agree...they also can't figure out why the fans don't embrace those Legions like they did previously...it's pretty easy to see why for me.
It's not because of Cosmic Boy's characterization is different...trust me, most people don't really notice that, nor do they care.
quote: As for your last sensence, I really couldn't understand it. Sorry. [/QB]
What he was saying was that when Paul Levitz finally got around to reading the 5YG Legion, which was some 5 years after it was first published, he said it was the worst weekend of his life spent outside of a hospital.
He says it in the Legion Compantion, and he reiterated it a few weeks ago at the New York Comicon...
And he was sitting right next to Keith Giffen when he said it...
Which then prompted an explantion from Keith Giffen...
He basically said he didn't intend to permanently destroy the Legion's future by tuning it into a dark dystopian future that was completely unrecognizable from the future of the original Legion, he said it was only meant to be temporary.
In other interviews he has said he was doing the best he could, as did the Bierbaums, of working around DC's editorial policy concerning Superman at that time. Which was a huge problem considering they had a great deal of stories they wanted to tell but couldn't since they couldn't even reference Superman.
In short, the only rationale for calling the V4 the original is because at the time, DC said so. Because there's no logical tie you can come up with by reading that version of the Legion. The books lack of appeal with a new or old audience equalling the old...hammers this point home.
It's simply lays claim to being the original, because I guess DC said it was.
DC isn't saying that anymore, now they're saying the Action Legion is. The difference is, the Action Legion does have similiarities, well, it at least has the essential similarity, of being part of the Superman Family, and is pretty recognizable as the original.
For instance Dawnstar...didn't take me 30 issues to realize that was her(and the creators didn't need to tell me it was her), I simply looked at her and recognized it as being her. Completely different from my experience in V4 where only liks 2 people(and I'm not one of them) recognized Dawnstar before the creators had to directly explain in story that she was Bounty.
Sorry, but V4 was not the original Legion, and if it was, it was only because DC said so. And they aren't saying that anymore, they haven't been saying it for a long time, like since the first time they had to reboot it.
DC says a lot of things...in this case, they said it was the original...and the fans of the original said otherwise when they didn't support it.
They said Mon-El was now Superboy and the casual fans said otehrwise when they didn't recognize Mon-El from Adam...and his series was cancelled after 20 issues.
Saying something is doesn't make it so...and that's definitely true with V4 and it's claims of being the original Legion. Ultimately, that decision will be made by the fans(both old and new), and their interest, or lack of it...
[ May 14, 2008, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
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I see this entire thread gets into typical Legion-fan turf: bash any version of Legion that isn't the poster's favorite.
The only "original" Legion was Adventure #247; every Legion that has appeared since has had differences. Levitz was a beloved era (including by me), but was no more or less "original" than any other.
It is a shame that Shooter's talent would be squandered, if the rumor is true. Even those of us not 100% thrilled with all of his issues thus far might hopefully agree upon that.
Unilateral declarations of dropping the book do not impress me, frankly. Bravo, you've drawn lines in the sand. The Legion has made it through far worse periods than this. I fail to see how demonizing Johns makes anything remotely better.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I see this entire thread gets into typical Legion-fan turf: bash any version of Legion that isn't the poster's favorite.
I didn't bash it...I merely stated the truth.
And I feel the point I am making is essential for all Legion fans for one simple reason...
All of us, I believe, all of us, hate the continual massive retcons and reboots to this book. I am not talking about minor ones. I am talking about gutting huge swaths of it's history...which has been done basically 4 times now since 1986, the first one was done out of a stupid editorial policy...all the others were done for commercial reasons.
I see this debate go on and on between Legion fans...how to keep the book from being rebooted, how to make it better...and most of it is stuff DC has been doing for the past 20 years that failed to attract a new audience on the level DC sought.
As a long time fan, I know why DC keeps rebooting this book, becuase they once had a ravenous fan base that impacted the companies decision making with their commercial buying power. They once had a book that was consistently one of DC's elite sellers from the Silver Age all the way up until 1986.
This book hasn't lost favor because of bad writing...
They have had gifted writers attempt to do this book...
Mark Waid Gail Simone Keith Giffen Roger Stern DnA..
Those guys are not hacks...they are like a whos who k=list of hot writers over the past 2 decades of comics...yet they have all hit the wall.
I feel pointing out that huge demarkation point between the Pre Crisis Legion and the Post Crisis Legion, all the Post Crisis Legions is essential to the books continued publication...and that is something I want.
And I have been silent for most of the past 25 years. I've given every Legion a chance, I've bought them all more or less regularly...but now I see the one that IMO will achieve DC's goals...it just so happens to be my personal favorite..and I will fight to keep DC(and hardocre Legion fans and creators) from making the same mistake they made originally...and that's underestimating the importance of Superman to this title's ability to be an elite(and thus less frequently rebooted) seller.
quote: The only "original" Legion was Adventure #247; every Legion that has appeared since has had differences. Levitz was a beloved era (including by me), but was no more or less "original" than any other.
Some way more major than others...and the failure to realize this is what has lead to the books bidecadal rebootings for the better part of 2 decades.
It aint the writing.
quote: It is a shame that Shooter's talent would be squandered, if the rumor is true. Even those of us not 100% thrilled with all of his issues thus far might hopefully agree upon that.
I agree...I hope DC didn't just Shooter as some sort of fodder...I don't think they did that though...you can accuse Didio of many things, but not being a fan of oldschool writers isn't one of them...he's definitely a fan of them.
quote: Unilateral declarations of dropping the book do not impress me, frankly. Bravo, you've drawn lines in the sand. The Legion has made it through far worse periods than this. I fail to see how demonizing Johns makes anything remotely better. [/qb]
People shouldn't have to buy a book they don't want to read...and I say this as a guy who has bought all the versions of the Legion. And you can be a true Legion fan without embracing all Legions...if you don't like it you shouldn't have to read it, there should be no loaylty there if the things that made you loyal are no longer there.
I personally understand that everyone does have their favorite...more power to them, my issue is ending the bidecadal reboots, and that's not going to happen until they get a version that sells at the level they want it too...and that's not going to happen until DC either gets Alan Moore(or perhaps Jim Shooter himself) to write the book...or figures out what was so conceptually appealing about the Legion in the first place.
[ May 14, 2008, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Gorilla Nebula: gee, it would be really nice if LSH had an editor that cared enough to make a clarifying statement. if nothing else it might bring the book(s) some attention and sales.
It's not a matter of caring. They don't seem to respond to rumors as a matter of course.
It might be nice if they did, but DC isn't responsible if people drive themselves bat-**** crazy over one line in a rumor column.
Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
quote:Originally posted by Superboy: I personally understand that everyone does have their favorite...more power to them, my issue is ending the bidecadal reboots, and that's not going to happen until they get a version that sells at the level they want it too...and that's not going to happen until DC either gets Alan Moore(or perhaps Jim Shooter himself) to write the book...or figures out what was so conceptually appealing about the Legion in the first place.
You assume that what was "conceptually appealing about the Legion in the first place" is actually going to sell well in today's market. And I see no reason to think it would.
What does sell these days is events. And what will make the Legion sell is when they can convince Joe Blow DC fan that buying the latest issue of the Legion will be necessary to follow the events of the latest, greatest company-wide crossover, and that if they don't follow the Legion they won't be there for the vast changes that will ripple throughout the entire DC Universe. And since that seems to be exactly where DC has decided the Legion needs to go, they probably will be successful in making it a big seller again.
Which makes a lot of sense from the standpoint of DC as corporate, money-making entity. But has so little to do with what this Legion fan wants from a Legion title that it isn't even funny.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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This is not exactly an answer to Superboy, but more of my interpretation - take it as you like it.
I don't see how the LSH can be considered as "over" Post-Crisis for Superman being ret-conned out of LSH's continuity. Most of what came before was still acknowledged. Characters were still the same. Chronology was still in place. And, in spite of Superman's definitive importance on the creation of LSH, for me, he was never the essence of LSH. The idea that characters matured (meaning: time passes) has always been much more important to the concept of LSH than Superman in terms of storytelling.
That's why for me TKM's is still the very same LSH (with continuity problems? You bet, but not more so than X-Men) - most of the stories in the past were still valid (considering Mon-El substituted for Superboy/Superman). You found it hard to recognize Bounty as Dawnstar? This has probably more to Keith's intricate art than to storytelling. Call Ty Templeton for easier artist comprehension...
TKM's didn't change the characters, IMHO. It changed the whole environment of the book. And this was brilliant - because it brought the whole history of LSH to its maximum test. It may have polarized (which is what good comics do), but as for how people still give TMK's run its passionate following, it is hardly a "everybody hates" deal (like, uh, Tom McCraw's).
Reboot is ignoring EVERYTHING. This was what Zero Hour did. Not only that, everything was different. Gone were history, characters, concept... Ditto for Waid/Kitson's reboot. Theoretically, the idea of youth against adults makes some sense, but the way it was presented sounded absolutely simplistic and formulaic. I imagine that the 31st Century would be even more "gray-ish" than today. But not with Waid: everything was black and white.
That's the strenght of Jim Shooter's current run: he gave up on that, focusing more on the political dealings of the Legion and UP. Now I can see some sides (not simply ALL youth against ALL adults), some alliances. Characters started showing difficulties in handling leadership (isn't it obvious? So far, every Legionnaire was a natural born leader!)...
Just my 0.02. And, no, TMK's was still part of the original LSH run. Well, even Legion On The Run was part of it (unfortunately). The whole ship went down on Zero Hour.
[ May 14, 2008, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Ricardo ]
From: Brasil | Registered: May 2008
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posted
Ricardo, Superboy and anyone else interested in discussing this post-Crisis reboot interpretation in depth, please consider stopping by the Roundtable--where, beginning with this post, we're currently debating this very subject as inspired by the train of thought began here! Looks like a very lively subject, indeed!
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: You assume that what was "conceptually appealing about the Legion in the first place" is actually going to sell well in today's market. And I see no reason to think it would.
I know it sold well the last time it was available, and it didn't get retconned because it stopped selling.
I've seen absolutely no evidence to indicate I might be wrong either...I have seen multiple versions of the Legion sans Superman not sell well though...and I don't think it was because of the writing.
And the sales performance of the Action Legion does seem to indicate I might be right. It sold well...
I think Superman is what makes the Legion unique...after all, he's not been a member of many teams, and the Legion was his first. I think he is a sales boost in Team Books...I think this is pretty well proven in the Justice League...
IT's a simple matter of the Legion's future world becoming more inviting and familiar with a well known character being a part of it. I think that is a cross generational appeal...and I think it will improve the books chances of success.
If you think about it...most successful teams do have a marquee character that is instantly recognizable, and the Legion really does not without Superman.
I realize trying to convice a Legion diehard of that is an impossible task...but I do think it's the truth.
I think if you just trot the Legion out there by itself...it's a typical Superteam...and one without the benefit of well known characters or even a Universe to operate in.
It's different for people that don't know the Legion than it is for people that do, and it's not the people that know the Legion that are the problem, it's the one's that don't....that's what I think.
quote: What does sell these days is events. And what will make the Legion sell is when they can convince Joe Blow DC fan that buying the latest issue of the Legion will be necessary to follow the events of the latest, greatest company-wide crossover, and that if they don't follow the Legion they won't be there for the vast changes that will ripple throughout the entire DC Universe. And since that seems to be exactly where DC has decided the Legion needs to go, they probably will be successful in making it a big seller again.
DC's been trying to make it a big seller again for a long time...but it's just another team, and not a particularly inviting one for new readers.
quote:Which makes a lot of sense from the standpoint of DC as corporate, money-making entity. But has so little to do with what this Legion fan wants from a Legion title that it isn't even funny. [/QB]
Well everyone wants something different...but like I said, you aren't the problem, I'm not the problem...DC has us already...we're the 17-30k monthlyh that buy just about anything with the name Legion on it...DC doesn't have to worry about us...and in fact worrying about us, catering to us...is what has made the book inaccesible to new readers, for the most part.
Again...on this board, looking around you'd think the #1 character in all of comicdom that should be given his own solo series is Brainiac 5...but it just wouldn't go over that way with people that aren't reading the Legion.
That's what I think...DC has done a bunch of Post Crisis Legion, they've tried different things...but in one way they've all been similar, and that similarity is why we sit here fans of an oft rebooted and confusing title with a fragmented and frustrated fan base.
Registered: Mar 2006
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