When Busiek and Perez came on, I was beyond excited, and I can still see why. They did a good job in returning the Avenger’s to the ‘Avengers’, especially after the recent years of Heroes Reborn and the Crossing before that. Nostalgia was heavy, but it felt like genuine Marvel Super-Hero action again. But I agree that the run was complete with flaws, for some very real reasons. But first, some of the good:
Perez’s art – talk about knocking it out of the ball park. Every issue was like getting a present. It was breath-taking.
Using old Avengers – Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Hank, Jan, Wanda, Clint, Vision, etc. So many Avengers that are true ‘core Avengers’ were brought back into the line-up and I felt that was very welcome. Especially Thor and Iron Man, who despite some fans thinking they’re part of the ‘big three’, I personally love their involvement in the team—more so than Cap.
The interaction between Avengers, with the everyday moments the dialogue, and the bureaucracy they had to deal with. That was fun and interesting to see.
Nostalgia – and yes, a lot of the nostalgia was nice. Thor yelling ‘Eric!’ to the once again dying Thunderstrike struck a cord with me, and Hawkeye struggling with his old role on the team was good. But in thinking about Busiek’s nostalgia, it hits on one of this run’s biggest flaws, in that it was way too nostalgia-centric at times. And ultimately, Busiek did things that brought he characters right back to the mid-70’s, ignoring tons of things before him. The Vision was no longer the same Vision he was back then and had been through quite a few changes. Hank was not the same ‘broken man’ anymore. Busiek felt the need to do a sequel to Avenger’s stories of old, not taking into account that sequels had already been done, with sequels to those in continuity too. He retread old ground *so* much that a great deal of history was ignored. Suddenly whole eras were lumped into ‘Heroes Reborn’ when there wasn’t any need for that.
And Busiek did the same thing Bendis does, in playing favorites. Sure, every writer does that, we all know Stern and Englehart did. But they were respectful to the past—which could be seen time and time again. But Busiek showered us with Traitholon, Silver Claw, Justice and Firestar, while at the same time ignoring many he didn’t like, just like Bendis does. It was that, and his focus on getting some Avengers stuck back in their old roles which I didn’t like. It felt like it was putting the Avengers back on the poisonous old path of being stale, which ultimately would lead to something as shitty as Avengers Dissassembled. Hate what was done to Carol, disliked his ignoring the Harras era (including changes to Vision, Sersi, Crystal, etc.).
I hated the Jerry Ordway arc. Here he had the Black Knight and Photon, two Avengers just waiting to be used again, and he pretty much mischaracterized them the whole time, on top of a boring story.
But I don’t want to seem as if I hate this era. Not the case at all—like others, I dislike parts of it, but love parts of it too. I liked the “Ultron Unlimited Arc” and thought it was fantastic. Earlier arcs with the Grim Reaper and the first few appearances with Lord Templar and Pagan were very interesting, and I couldn’t wait to see where it went. Generally, the first 25 issues of the run were pretty excellent, with only some minor things that were annoying. But those things would continue to become more pronounced later.
Avengers Forever, I actually loved. I thought it was very well done, and I loved the tributes he paid to various earlier eras, especially with Hank and Jan in tow. Songbird and Captain Marvel III (his first appearance) were interesting and the revelations were all exciting. It was like he came and ‘fixed’ all the stupid things over the years with a really great story that roped in the Kree, Srkulls, Kang, Immortus, Rick Jones, etc. It was really awesome. I think if he only retreaded old ground here most of us would have been satisfied.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Oh, I know that . It was a pretty awful mini too (though Beta Ray Bill showed up). But at the end of two long posts, I was getting sloppy. I meant mainly Genis first appearance in that costume. Really, its the first time he appeared that it counted, but I guess that's all a matter of opinion.
Nit-picker
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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I actually liked Legacy. He first appeared in the Silver Surfer. He made a few appearances there. I want to say next was Cosmic Powers mini? Then his own mini. I liked him in space better.
But yeah AF is when he actually mattered. Poor Genis. He got the shaft.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote::Originally posted by Reboot: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Stealth: The follow-up issue, where the Big Three plus Jan & Hank come up with a new lineup, has one panel that makes me angry just thinking about it: Sersi, back in that horrible green bikini, rejecting the offer to rejoin but telling them to invite her to the next party, as if the Harras/Epting stories had never happened; the only way I can cope with that panel is by telling myself that it's a shape-shifter posing as Sersi, and that one day, my Sersi, the real Sersi, will return. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, she was the only Eternal who got panel time AND was still mindwiped at the end of Eternals #7, so... *shrugs*
So there is hope for Sersi after all, just like there's hope for Rita, the female Yellowjacket. Yay!
quote:Originally posted by profh0011: "Then there's Busiek's tendency to belittle my beloved Harras/Epting era, which leads me to believe that he's jealous"
Maybe he never read those issues? Sure would make it easier to ignore tham or pretend they never happened...
Oh, Busiek's read those issues, all right. He never misses a chance to pompously pontificate about how superior HIS issues are, how HE didn't try to make the Avengers more like the X-Men. *&)()&*%^% arrogant, clueless jerk! I enjoyed Harras & Epting's Avengers because it WASN'T like the X-Men, and I actually half-heartedly followed X-Men at the same time as Avengers, until the ridiculous resolution of the whole "Who's the real Betsy?" mess.
quote:Originally posted by profh0011: "The final lineup includes ex-New Warriors Firestar and Justice"
I had no idea who the hell these people were, and the way they were written didn't make me wanna care, either.
I would highly recommend reading the Firestar mini-series (now available in digest form) and New Warriors Volume One # 1-25.
quote:Originally posted by profh0011: "Ultron Unlimited"
Ohhh-- I HATED this thing! One more case of bringing back an old villain, AGAIN, and upping the ante, higher and higher, to simply monstrous proportions. And this wasn't even the LAST story with Ultron, was it???
LOL I think bigger is sometimes better, when it's done right. And as far as I know, Ultron didn't reappear until just this month, in Mighty Avengers # 1, which I haven't browsed through yet, but I've read some spoilers and it sounds eye-rollingly bad.
quote:Originally posted by profh0011: "I had originally intended to add a review of Busiek's 12-issue time-travel limited series Avengers Forever"
Oh don't wimp out on us now! C'mon, SOMEBODY's gotta refresh my memory about that thing. It was too deeply involved in the overlong mess that followed.
Sorry, but I can't do it -- I don't want my brain to melt.
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Deodoto and later issues – Deodoto has always been hit or miss with me, and this was an era where his art was just way to over the top. And the line-up began to be more pronounced, so that Deathcry had more screen time, Giant Man was done well, but needed better interaction, and now Quicksilver became a full-time member, which meant it was nice to see a follow-up on where his and Crystal’s story would go from here (as well as get him back in Avengers, where I feel he belongs rather than X-Factor), although I didn’t like him wanting to reconcile with Crystal. The Taylor Madison/Herc story felt kind of like a cop-out, complete with Zeus involvement coming out of left field, so I can understand how people may have hated it.
The Crossing – perhaps the worst Avengers story ever told. Completely all over the field, it was impossible to keep track of read and made little sense. Mantis as the surprise villainous, Kang’s continuity-messy ‘hidden history of the Avengers’, Iron Man betraying them and then teen Tony arriving…it was just crap. It was the epitome of what was wrong with the 90’s. Really, I almost can’t find words venomous enough to talk about it.
Pre-Onslought – right before Onslought, Waid came in and attempted to get the book on track, but ultimately it was too discombobulated.
Heroes Reborn – Awful. Really, there isn’t one good thing to say about it. Ok, it beats the Crossing, but c’mon.
Thank you, Cobie, for once again covering the issues I don't have. I'm wondering...my Avengers collection ends with Busiek's last issue. Would you like to take over the chronology from Johns through the present day?
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: And Busiek did the same thing Bendis does, in playing favorites. Sure, every writer does that, we all know Stern and Englehart did. But they were respectful to the past—which could be seen time and time again. But Busiek showered us with Traitholon, Silver Claw, Justice and Firestar, while at the same time ignoring many he didn’t like, just like Bendis does. It was that, and his focus on getting some Avengers stuck back in their old roles which I didn’t like. It felt like it was putting the Avengers back on the poisonous old path of being stale, which ultimately would lead to something as shitty as Avengers Dissassembled. Hate what was done to Carol, disliked his ignoring the Harras era (including changes to Vision, Sersi, Crystal, etc.).
Amen to that. Especially the part about putting the Avengers back on the path of being stale, which led to Avengers Disassembled. If Busiek was a better writer (and less of a stick-in-the-mud), he could have gradually evolved the team so that it went from overly-familiar members to fresh new members. Instead, the book got so grindingly stale with the status quo, that the pendulum swang too far the other way, and the book was shattered, perhaps forever. This is why I have no patience for people with very rigid ideas of what the Avengers "should" and "shouldn't" be. The book spent its first 30 years taking chances and getting better and better thanks to those chances -- there is a lesson to be learned here.
posted
Stealth, I'd love to take over chronology wise, though I only see myself as a deputy performing duties for you for the issues you're missing It won't be too many either, the John's issues can basically be covered pretty fast. I'm a John's fan, but his Avengers run wasn't anything special (and Austen...heh, Austen...).
Looking forward to thoughts on the second half of Busiek's run--which actually began with what I thought were some fine Avengers moments, only to end up going through one of the more drawn out stories in Avengers history.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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"And as far as I know, Ultron didn't reappear until just this month, in Mighty Avengers # 1"
I just took a quick glance down my index, there was a one-shot called THE ULTRON IMPERATIVE (Nov'01) written by Busiek (w/ plot assist by Roy Thomas!) and with dialogue & art by a nostalgic ARMY of former & new AVENGERS creators (Roger Stern, Steve Englehart, Jim Starlin, etc.)
I'd also love for someone to review the Hellcat-related stories, AVENGERS INFINITY, the completely over-the-top absurdity of MAXIMUM SECURITY (some story ideas just go TOO DAMN FAR) and CELESTIAL QUEST.
Registered: Aug 2003
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By the way, I also looked over my index, and noticed that the editor in charge of the entirety of Busiek's run-- and Johns' run-- was Tom Brevoort. When I started adding editors to my index, that's when I noticed that nearly every major turning point in a series or change in creative line-up coincided with changes in editors, which told me editors often have more influence on a book than writers. It's pretty obvious Brevoort is also a nostalgia freak, which is not necessarily a bad thing (especially when I see how so much of Marvel & DC have degenerated over the last 15 years).
Let's put it this way... whenever something happens-- good or bad-- ALWAYS blame whoever's in charge! (As Captain Kirk said on at least one occasion-- "It's MY ship-- and MY responsibility.")
Registered: Aug 2003
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Okay, here's what I want to know. Maybe it's been asked before... whatever.
Anyway, in Civil War: The Confession Tony said-- and I quote-- "The Avengers avenge, X-Men defend, the Fantastic Four explore." Which, yeah, okay, we already knew. But what is it that the Avengers are avenging? (Also, side note: If the X-Men defend, what exactly do the Defenders do?)
I mean, the X-Men are defending mutants from humans (and humans from mutants if the House of M debacle is any indication) and the FF exploration is basically self-explanatory but... yeah. What is there to avenge, exactly? Or who? And why are these people doing it?
-------------------- Abin: You know what to do with a Cali sandwich? No but neither do Cobie and CJ! CJ: Yeah, we do. She's smiling, isn't she?
Context... who needs it?
From: Sunny Cali-- er, Planet Earth? | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by profh0011: By the way, I also looked over my index, and noticed that the editor in charge of the entirety of Busiek's run-- and Johns' run-- was Tom Brevoort. When I started adding editors to my index, that's when I noticed that nearly every major turning point in a series or change in creative line-up coincided with changes in editors, which told me editors often have more influence on a book than writers. It's pretty obvious Brevoort is also a nostalgia freak, which is not necessarily a bad thing (especially when I see how so much of Marvel & DC have degenerated over the last 15 years).
Let's put it this way... whenever something happens-- good or bad-- ALWAYS blame whoever's in charge! (As Captain Kirk said on at least one occasion-- "It's MY ship-- and MY responsibility.")
Brevoort then is responsible for the current nightmare. What's wrong with the middle road I say?
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Caliente: Okay, here's what I want to know. Maybe it's been asked before... whatever.
Anyway, in Civil War: The Confession Tony said-- and I quote-- "The Avengers avenge, X-Men defend, the Fantastic Four explore." Which, yeah, okay, we already knew. But what is it that the Avengers are avenging? (Also, side note: If the X-Men defend, what exactly do the Defenders do?)
I mean, the X-Men are defending mutants from humans (and humans from mutants if the House of M debacle is any indication) and the FF exploration is basically self-explanatory but... yeah. What is there to avenge, exactly? Or who? And why are these people doing it?
Tis the job of the Avengers to avenge all attempts of attack and subversion upon the normal folk of Mid-Guard as noble Thor once said!
In 40 years of history, this has never truly been explained though. It was just such a cool name in the 1960's!
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
"In 40 years of history, this has never truly been explained though. It was just such a cool name in the 1960's!"
Jan said something like, "We need a name like The Avengers, or..." Sheesh.
Sure seems to me Stan Lee (& Marvel in general) spent some time gutting existing tv shows for their names...
THE AVENGERS THE DEFENDERS THE INVADERS THE CHAMPIONS
At least you can't confuse the JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA with anyone else!
I guess when THE X-FILES started it was "payback". Had it been a comic-book rather than a tv show, I suspect Marvel's lawyers would have been all over them...
Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Stealth, I'd love to take over chronology wise, though I only see myself as a deputy performing duties for you for the issues you're missing It won't be too many either, the John's issues can basically be covered pretty fast. I'm a John's fan, but his Avengers run wasn't anything special (and Austen...heh, Austen...).
Thanks, I appreciate it. Sometimes it's more fun to review mediocre-to-bad comics than good comics, isn't it? Real cathartic.
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Looking forward to thoughts on the second half of Busiek's run--which actually began with what I thought were some fine Avengers moments, only to end up going through one of the more drawn out stories in Avengers history.
Here's a little advance sample:
The Kulan Gath/Origin-of-Silverclaw storyarc reminds me of those hokey old black & white jungle movies that Joel and Mike and the robots used to make fun of on Mystery Science Theater 3000.
quote:Originally posted by profh0011: "And as far as I know, Ultron didn't reappear until just this month, in Mighty Avengers # 1"
I just took a quick glance down my index, there was a one-shot called THE ULTRON IMPERATIVE (Nov'01) written by Busiek (w/ plot assist by Roy Thomas!) and with dialogue & art by a nostalgic ARMY of former & new AVENGERS creators (Roger Stern, Steve Englehart, Jim Starlin, etc.)
Sounds moderately intriguing. If Busiek's name wasn't on it, I probably would put it on my list of back issues to search for.
quote:Originally posted by profh0011: I'd also love for someone to review the Hellcat-related stories, AVENGERS INFINITY, the completely over-the-top absurdity of MAXIMUM SECURITY (some story ideas just go TOO DAMN FAR) and CELESTIAL QUEST.
Hellcat-related stories? Do you mean the Avengers and T-bolt annuals where she's brought back to life?
I once considered buying the back issues of Avengers Infinity, because Roger Stern is one of my favorite writers and Sean Chen is a good artist. But when I found out it stars three of my least favorite Avengers -- Starfox, Tigra, and Moondragon -- I decided against it.
I feel so lucky that uncannyxmen.net has detailed summaries of Maximum Security, so I could find out what happened without wasting money. Just as with the mini-crossover Live Kree or Die, Busiek proves he shouldn't be let anywhere near the sub-genre of superhero space opera.
I haven't read Avengers: Celestial Quest, and I've never really felt much curiosity about it. I guess it's because I think Thanos should never have been resurrected, and his presence in any comic book is an automatic turn-off to me, even with Steve Englehart writing it.
quote:Originally posted by profh0011: When I started adding editors to my index, that's when I noticed that nearly every major turning point in a series or change in creative line-up coincided with changes in editors, which told me editors often have more influence on a book than writers.
It would be interesting to use that reasoning on the Avengers editors who came before Brevoort. At the moment, I don't have access to my copies of the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers (the 1990s update of the original), and I need them to reference the exact dates and issues. But I definitely will come back to this subject very soon.
quote:Originally posted by Caliente: Okay, here's what I want to know. Maybe it's been asked before... whatever.
Anyway, in Civil War: The Confession Tony said-- and I quote-- "The Avengers avenge, X-Men defend, the Fantastic Four explore." Which, yeah, okay, we already knew. But what is it that the Avengers are avenging? (Also, side note: If the X-Men defend, what exactly do the Defenders do?)
I mean, the X-Men are defending mutants from humans (and humans from mutants if the House of M debacle is any indication) and the FF exploration is basically self-explanatory but... yeah. What is there to avenge, exactly? Or who? And why are these people doing it?
I have a feeling that neither Stan Lee nor anyone else at Marvel gave any serious thought to the true meaning of the name until Bob Harras referred to it twice during his run, raising interesting questions about whether or not to take the name literally, and where to draw the line that heroes shouldn't cross. Forgive me for being vague, it's just I'm afraid that if I go into detail, I'll spoil the stories.
No one since Harras has ever addressed the subject, but hopefully that will change sometime in the future.
posted
Ultron also appeared in Frank Tieri's last Iron Man arc (v3 #45-49 or thereabouts), following up on Ultron Imperative and explaining away Quesada's Sentient Armour (and something else Quesada introduced...).
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. It was a pretty awful mini too (though Beta Ray Bill showed up). But at the end of two long posts, I was getting sloppy. I meant mainly Genis first appearance in that costume. Really, its the first time he appeared that it counted, but I guess that's all a matter of opinion.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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