Bringing the Avengers over to Arkon’s dimension for the first time in quite a while, Harras & Epting revisit one of the themes of Operation: Galactic Storm – how literally should the name “Avengers” be taken? This 2-parter (# 358-359) finds Sersi’s behavior crossing over from erratic to dangerous, and as a bonus features one of the few appearances of Thundra where she is not written as a caricature.
The 360s are an extended 30th Anniversary celebration; unfortunately, this being 1993, that meant gimmicky covers and extra pages of filler. But thankfully, the actual stories and art continued to be mostly excellent. First, # 360 introduces two more Gatherers: the shapeshifting Tabula Rasa and the disgustingly creepy Anti-Vision; the Gatherers kidnap Vision to switch bodies with him and Anti-Vision, so that now Vision has a body almost identical to his original one. # 361 is one of my favorite issues, with lots of cool revelations about the Eternals to explain just what is going on with Sersi and what can be done about it, giving Epting a chance to give us his stunning interpretations of the Celestials and the Uni-Mind (yes, he already drew them in the Brethren storyarc, but these renditions are much more polished.) It ends with the love triangle getting sharper: Crystal and Black Knight finally kiss even though the Black Knight has been mind-melded with Sersi. In #362, the Anti-Vision wounds Swordsman and threatens Crystal before Sersi kicks his ass. The next four issues begin with a raid on Proctor’s citadel, where the now-erratic Black Knight defies Captain America in mid-battle and Proctor vanishes after setting the citadel on self-destruct mode and all the Gatherers except Magdalene are apparently blown up; this segues seamlessly into the introduction of Deathcry and the return of renegade Kree-man Galen Kor, this time with his private army of fellow renegades invading Earth along with a fleet of Kree Sentries and a new Nega-Bomb! Desperate for reinforcements, the Avengers draft Magdalene and Hank Pym, the latter returning as Giant-Man and deciding to make it full-time. The last-page revelation of a powerful, supposedly deceased villain as the Kree renegades’ supplier would have more resonance if it hadn’t turned into an unresolved plot thread, but overall this is one of my all-time favorite Avengers storyarcs. I’ve never made any secret that I hated the non-superpowered Hank Pym in that stupid jumpsuit, and I welcomed his return as Giant-Man, in a new costume somewhat reminiscent of Dave Cockrum’s Colossal Boy costume (although the belts and pockets are a very 1990s mistake.) The scene where Giant-Man single-handedly out-fights one of the Kree sentries is a classic Avengers moment, as is this exchange between him and Captain America at the end:
G-M: You know, I’m the only one here who was part of this team when it started way back when...so take it from an old-timer when I say, you did good today, Avengers. You did good.
CA: Amen to that, Hank.
Regarding Deathcry – I’ve always run hot or cold with this character, although I loved the hints at a possible romance between her and Vision. I think the problem was that, later on in Harras’s run, just when he started to give her more depth, was when circumstances derailed the possibility of her evolving further. And Busiek’s infamous criticism of Deathcry amuses me: he said she was a bunch of X-Men cliches, as if Busiek’s own pet character Silverclaw wasn’t a bunch of X-Men cliches herself, right down to the stereotypical “foreigner” speech patterns?
# 367, a stand-alone, allows the Avengers to catch their breath before the next challenge, and mostly focuses on the Vision’s interaction with the rest of the team as he tries to figure out just who he is and where he fits in. The inside art is weak (Epting & Palmer only did the cover), but the story is good, especially for Vision fans.
And finally, we come to the unfortunate Avengers/X-Men crossover, Bloodties (Avengers # 368, X-Men # 26, Avengers West Coast # 101, Uncanny X-Men # 307, Avengers # 369.) One would think that the creative and editorial teams involved could have come up with something good for the mutual 30th Anniversaries of both teams, but that wasn’t the case here. It does get off to a good start when, after Crystal discovers baby daughter Luna has been kidnapped and is being held in the war-torn country of Genosha (a staple of the X-Books which would take way too long to explain) and the American government doesn’t want the Avengers to interfere, she angrily defies Nick Fury, causing Sersi to remark, “It seems our little kitten’s developed claws! I love it.” But once all the characters arrive in Genosha, the story stumbles without direction from one rote battle to the next. The only thing that I find engaging about the story is Crystal’s love for Luna, and their reunion at the end is very moving.
The next two issues were a 2-part fill-in, followed by the resolution of the Crystal/Black Knight/Sersi/Proctor Saga, which I’ll cover next week.
As though Bloodties had never happened, Avengers gets right back on track once the Proctor storyline returns in # 372. The four-part conclusion to this sumptuous epic has so many exciting battles and revelations that I don’t want to spoil them for people who haven’t yet read the Harras/Epting issues (one thing I really hope is that this thread might inspire people to check out these issues.) What I can say is that Proctor has a new band of Gatherers – Rik (as in an alternate-reality Rick Jones), Korg (alternate-reality Thing), Tarkas (alt-reality Karkas?), Sliver (not sure who she’s supposed to be), and Jocasta (self-explanatory, but this one is gold-plated.) This gives Epting yet another chance to display his great sense of character design (to digress for a moment, I forgot to mention before that Crystal got a new black-and-white costume during the early 360s, IMO a great improvement over that blindingly bright yellow number.) And Sersi and Black Knight both seem to be in danger of going over the edge, and we finally learn the origin of Proctor and just who his Earth-616 counterpart really is. Without giving away the ending, I really have to give Harras & Epting credit for tying it all together seamlessly, for providing each key character with important moments, for not overreaching the way creators often do with such ambitious stories, and more than anything for producing a fresh new take on Avengers while still staying true to the spirit of the book, something which nobody who has followed them on Avengers has been able to do since, IMO.
The end of that story was also the end of Epting’s run on Avengers (his last issue was # 375.) Harras stayed on for about seventeen more issues (not counting fill-ins, which included # 376 and # 377), and at first, it looked like his writing would maintain the high standards he had set – # 378 and # 379 brought back the Kree renegades for another go-round, while Deathcry learned some hard lessons about the truth behind Shi’ar legends. The story was strong and the art, mostly by Staz Johnson and Tom Palmer, was adequate except for the last few pages which were drawn (badly) by another penciler/inker team.
The letter column in # 379 informed readers that Epting’s permanent replacement would be Mike Deodato. I can still remember how disappointed I felt at that announcement – up until then, the art in Avengers had been a refreshing alternative to the pseudo-Image style running rampant through the comics industry at the time, and now the book was going to be drawn by a Jim Lee clone. Hoping that maybe Palmer could make Deodato tolerable to me, I bought # 380 and, wow, what a letdown. Not only was Deodato’s art just as unappealing to me as it had been on other books, but the story – some mish-mash about the High Evolutionary and Wundagore – was so bad, I couldn’t believe that Harras’s name was still in the credits. Thinking this might be a fluke, I bought # 381 and it was just as bad. I almost dropped the book right then, but I gave it one final chance with # 384, which was solicited as the resolution to the Hercules/Taylor Madison plot thread. Long story short, that issue was the final straw for me. I didn’t buy an issue of Avengers again until years later.
Looking back on it today, and knowing more about how the comics industry works, I can see what might have contributed to Avengers’ sudden and steep decline: relentless catering to the speculator market whose bubble was about to burst; mega-crossover madness over well-nurtured plots; Harras on his way to the Editor-in-Chief position delegating the plots to Terry Kavanagh; the poisonous influence of DC’s tearing down of Superman, Batman, and Green Lantern; and so on.
Then there was Onslaught/Heroes Reborn, which contributed to my leaving comics for several years – back then, I considered Image “the enemy”, and for Marvel to involve Image’s fading-star creators with their most important titles was just too much for me. I might not have been paying attention, but I don’t recall anyone saying at the time that this would only last one year.
By the time Avengers was relaunched from # 1 with Busiek & Perez, I was mostly ignoring comics. I did buy the odd comic here and there, depending mostly on who the artist was, but it wasn’t until 2005 that I started catching up on what I had been missing. And so, my reviews of Avengers Volume Three will begin next week.
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"By the time Avengers was relaunched from # 1 with Busiek & Perez, I was mostly ignoring comics. I did buy the odd comic here and there, depending mostly on who the artist was, but it wasn’t until 2005 that I started catching up on what I had been missing."
I dropped off from Marvel a LOT earlier-- in the case of THE AVENGERS, right at the end of Harras' 1st multi-parter (with Steve Epting). I got pretty much fed up with EVERYTHING Marvel was doing, and for a stretch there, about the only book I bought regularly was-- of all things-- CONAN CLASSICS, reprinting the earliest Thomas-Smith issues which I had never read before. Also, there was a 2-issue FLASH GORDON mini-series by Archie Goodwin & Al Williamson, which must remain one of the most stunningly glorious items to ever come from the company. But before you knew it, I stopped buying any Marvels at all. For several years.
It was at the urging of a good friend and fellow fan that I decided to check out Marvel at all some years later, when Roger Stern decided to FINALLY come back and FINISH (and "fix") the unfinished mess that had been hanging for so long, which led to HOBGOBLIN LIVES! Foolishly, not long after, I checked out some other Spidey titles... within 2 years, I had sworn off the character-- "FOREVER". (Steve Rude notwithstanding.)
However, I did check out FANTASTIC FOUR, IRON MAN and THE AVENGERS when they did "Heroes Return". The FF was amazing-- for all of 3 issues. As soon as I heard Alan Davis was leaving after only 3 issues, I made damn sure I didn't buy #4. And the only new FF's I've bought since are the odd issue drawn by Stuart Immonen.
IRON MAN had me hooked for the entirely of Kurt Busiek's run, as well as Roger Stern's, who sort of finished up what Kurt had started. After that, the book took a bad left turn-- and then got MUCH worse than I could have dreamed. As soon as the story I was reading ended, I was OUTTA there, and have not read a new IM since.
THE AVENGERS was another amazing run. George Perez really showed just how good he'd gotten over all the years he was gone. It was sad when he finally left, but at least this time, he had a nice, long, mostly-"stable" run-- which he never had on the book before.
Alan Davis continued to blow me away with his work... but once again, he left FAR too quickly! Kurt Busiek may be complimented on the real "epic" he created with Kang this time out, but once Davis left, the art was on shaky ground all the way thru to the end. And damn, did it take a LONG time to reach the end. I also feel Busiek went too far. What he had Kang responsible for this time just went over way too many lines. This would have been "okay" in my book, had this been planned, definitively, as the LAST-EVER Kang story. It wasn't. The bastard got away at the end! No F****** way that guy should have been still ALIVE by the end of the story!!! When are they gonna get it into their heads that you don't need to keep villains alive forever to ensure their longevity? Ian Fleming killed EVERY ONE of James Bond's baddies-- except for Blofeld, in their first-and-only appearance. Some villains are much better when you kill 'em off at "the end".
I checked out Geoff Johns' run... was SEVERELY disappointed. The art sucked as well, as I recall. Then Olivier Copiel came along... and didn't realy add anything to THE AVENGERS. His presence served ONLY one function-- to TAKE AWAY from DC's LEGION book, which was FINALLY kicking real ass for the first time in years at that point. I suppose whoever decided to hire him away from DC might be looked at as partly responsible for the current LEGION "reboot", which made ME stop buying that book for the first time since I began buying it regularly back in 1978.
Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:there was a 2-issue FLASH GORDON mini-series by Archie Goodwin & Al Williamson, which must remain one of the most stunningly glorious items to ever come from the company.
That's the first I've heard about it. I'll definitely put it on my list of back issues to search for. The Star Wars Team Supreme on Flash Gordon...sounds awesome.
quote:It was at the urging of a good friend and fellow fan that I decided to check out Marvel at all some years later, when Roger Stern decided to FINALLY come back and FINISH (and "fix") the unfinished mess that had been hanging for so long, which led to HOBGOBLIN LIVES!
Yeah, Hobgoblin Lives was one of the few bright spots during the final year of my first love affair with superhero comics. Stern's Post-1980s work is hit-or-miss to me, but that one really clicked.
Have you read the Invaders story arc that Roger Stern wrote, Steve Epting penciled, and Al Williamson inked? It was serialized in Marvel's short-lived anthology series titled Marvel Universe, and it is OUTSTANDING! I'm not generally an Invaders fan, but a high-quality creative team like that would make just about anything a must-read.
quote:IRON MAN had me hooked for the entirely of Kurt Busiek's run, as well as Roger Stern's, who sort of finished up what Kurt had started. After that, the book took a bad left turn-- and then got MUCH worse than I could have dreamed. As soon as the story I was reading ended, I was OUTTA there, and have not read a new IM since.
I haven't read either writers' Iron Man issues. There's a Busiek interview on the net from shortly after he left Iron Man, where he talks about how he had wanted the book to be what it was like during the Bill Mantlo era -- which I interpreted as, "pretend like the two Bob Layton eras never existed!" To a hardcore Layton era fangirl like myself, that's heresy!
quote:THE AVENGERS was another amazing run. George Perez really showed just how good he'd gotten over all the years he was gone. It was sad when he finally left, but at least this time, he had a nice, long, mostly-"stable" run-- which he never had on the book before.
I'll get into this in more detail in my reviews, but I have to say that IMO Perez's art carried the first three years of Avengers Volume Three through many rough patches where the stories were lacking.
quote:Alan Davis continued to blow me away with his work... but once again, he left FAR too quickly!
I recall reading somewhere that Davis left because he didn't like the way Busiek had crowded the book with obscure or semi-obscure members. That seems kind of funny to me, given that Busiek's attitude for the early part of Volume Three seemed to be "only the big guns count." That sure came around to bite him on the ass. LOL
quote:Kurt Busiek may be complimented on the real "epic" he created with Kang this time out...
Again, I'll get into this in more detail in my reviews, but I think that that so-called "epic" is the biggest waste of space since bloody Korvac.
quote:...but once Davis left, the art was on shaky ground all the way thru to the end.
Yep. Whose idea was it to have Kieron Dwyer draw most of the key issues?? His art is horrible!
quote:And damn, did it take a LONG time to reach the end. I also feel Busiek went too far. What he had Kang responsible for this time just went over way too many lines. This would have been "okay" in my book, had this been planned, definitively, as the LAST-EVER Kang story. It wasn't. The bastard got away at the end! No F****** way that guy should have been still ALIVE by the end of the story!!! When are they gonna get it into their heads that you don't need to keep villains alive forever to ensure their longevity? Ian Fleming killed EVERY ONE of James Bond's baddies-- except for Blofeld, in their first-and-only appearance. Some villains are much better when you kill 'em off at "the end".
I agree. The villain resurrection that particularly pisses me off is Zemo Junior. When Roger Stern had him go splat on the sidewalk at the end of the Masters of Evil story arc, that should have been the end of that. Instead, Gruenwald resurrected him, Busiek pushed him to the forefront through Thunderbolts, and Nicieza tried to turn him into a bloody anti-hero! Now he has his own mini-series. Enough already!
quote:I checked out Geoff Johns' run... was SEVERELY disappointed. The art sucked as well, as I recall.
I haven't read Johns' run, because it seems like even Johns' most hardcore fans don't like it. Re: the art -- Kieron Dwyer strikes again.
Finally, I would like to reiterate that I would really like to see some posts about the current Avengers, like we had at the beginning of this thread. Mighty Avengers is coming out soon, among other things. I'm planning to browse through (but not buy) the first few issues of Mighty Avengers just out of curiosity to see what happens with...
quote:Originally posted by Stealth: I recall reading somewhere that Davis left because he didn't like the way Busiek had crowded the book with obscure or semi-obscure members. That seems kind of funny to me, given that Busiek's attitude for the early part of Volume Three seemed to be "only the big guns count." That sure came around to bite him on the ass. LOL
Davis left because he was only ever contracted for six issues while Kilraven (IIRC) was in limbo. Similar story to his three-issue F4 stint a few years earlier.
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
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"That's the first I've heard about it. I'll definitely put it on my list of back issues to search for. The Star Wars Team Supreme on Flash Gordon...sounds awesome."
Al Williamson worked on FG 3-- or 4-- times that I know of. He did a brief run in the mid-60's on the King Comics comic-book. I have one issue-- WHOA!!!! Every panel a stunner.
I believe he worked on the newspaper strip-- briefly-- but I'm not really sure when, or for how long. The one that bugs me is, Goodwin & Williamson did the comic-book adaptation of the 1980 FG movie-- and I've never found a copy of it! I can only imagine it looks (and probably "reads") better than the film. Then around 1992, they did a 2-issue series, which apparently fits in with the original continuity of the newspaper strip (I'm mostly familiar with the Alex Raymond run, the decades since have ben at a loss), but also paid tribute to the movie serials. It actually featured Azura, Queen of Magic, who'd been in FLASH GORDON'S TRIP TO MARS-- but treated her with more respect than that half-baked bad sequel did. (I found out some years ago Universal went thru 3 distinct periods where it was owned by different people-- and as it happens, the 3 FG serials were made by 3 completely different managements! No wonder the 1st & 3rd are so good, but the 2nd one sucks so bad!)
I did get the entire short run of MARVEL UNIVERSE; fun book! Stern brought back the giant "dragon" submarine that had appeared in one of the Simon & Kirby issues of CAPTAIN AMERICA. That was the only INVADERS revival that really interested me.
"There's a Busiek interview on the net from shortly after he left Iron Man, where he talks about how he had wanted the book to be what it was like during the Bill Mantlo era -- which I interpreted as, "pretend like the two Bob Layton eras never existed!""
Interesting; this is the first I've heard that. What I did notice is, Busiek's IM run reminded me of Roy Thomas' 2nd DR. STRANGE run, in that, despite so many years in between, you felt like you were reading a genuine continuation of the EARLIEST stories from the mid-60's-- instead of the book's history having a disjointed feel with different eras, it made you feel like, YES, the entire history of the book is somehow consistent.
Bill Mantlo was the perennial "fill-in" guy. He did so many fill-ins on IM when others kept blowing deadlines... he eventually took over the book, along with the returning George Tuska on HIS 3rd run. When Tuska left the last time (I'm not sure if he ever came back again), they "updated" the art somewhat, and it was at that moment I felt Mantlo was finally coming into his own as a writer. I was really beginning to enjoy his work on the book... when WHAM! He was gone, replaced by Michelinie & Layton, who apparently strong-armed their way onto it in some behind-the-scenes office politics power-play. SURE, they did good. SURE, they were BETTER than Mantlo. But to this day, it still feels "wrong" to me, how they got on the book in the first place.
I felt seriously let down when they revealed Bethany Cabe was still married... and then left the book. To my eyes, it went to HELL... and then Denny O'Neil spent 3 years DRAGGING it thru the mud. When things finally got back to reasonable, he left it to more chaos. I was glad Michelinie & Layton returned. At least half of their 2nd run was fun reading. But then they decided to Tony's life was going too good... BASTARDS. (It was the "Frank Miller syndrome" taking over, that's what it was.) I kept reading the book for around 2 years after they left the 2nd time, but NEVER enjoyed a single issue, and finally quit. Heard HORRIBLE things about it afterwards, and was so happy I missed it all.
The Kurt Busiek-Sean Chen run put the book back on top, as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I found myself enjoying the book MORE than I had when Michelinie & Layton were doing it. The reason I figure this was, Michelinie & Layton seemed to me to have too much "attitude"-- they wanted it to be "THEIR" book, "THEIR" characters. Busiek seemed to want to give readers the "REAL" Tony Stark, not some re-invention of the latest know-it-all hot-shot egomaniac writers. But that's me.
One thing I never completely "got" during the entire run was, what the HELL was going on with Pepper & Happy? Apparently they were separated-- but I don't think anybody EVER found out why! As it went on and on, Pepper surprised me by becoming one of my FAVORITE female characters in the whole Marvel Universe. (And Sean Chen drew her cuter than I'd ever seen.) Frankly, when she & Tony looked like they were getting closer, I didn't mind. If her marriage was really done and over with, maybe it was about time. But then Busiek left, and Stern-- true to form-- said, "UH UH". I love Stern's work, but has anyone but me noticed he has this BAD habit of BREAKING UP longtime romances??? (Peter & MJ, Dr. Strange & Clea, Tony & Pepper) When I mentioned this to my comics-shop guy, he made a funny comment about it, but I'm not sure I should repeat it...
Joe Quesada's BRIEF run as writer was a warm-up for his longer run as EIC. Loud, in-your-face, shocking "event" stuff, not much class... I don't even remember who came after him. I just know the writing AND the art was HORRIBLE, and despite numerous hype about this or that big-name talent on the book, I've never been tempted back. I've had enough of "bait-and-switch".
"I think that that so-called "epic" is the biggest waste of space since bloody Korvac."
It looked good when it started. By the end... AAAUGH!
"The villain resurrection that particularly pisses me off is Zemo Junior."
This is always one that I have a hard time connecting with at all. This guy appeared in ONE fill-in issue written by Roy Thomas (if memory serves) in the middle of Steve Englehart's all-time classic run on C.A. And I always got the feeling Roy killed him off at the end of that ONE issue. When someone reminds me that Stern killed him off... I'm left wondering, how was it he was still alive for Stern to kill?
"Davis left because he was only ever contracted for six issues while Kilraven (IIRC) was in limbo."
That's the other thing that got me about Davis. He left AVENGERS-- which was going really good at that moment-- for KILLRAVEN ? Now, for anyone who's never seen it, Davis' art bears a STRIKING resemblance to Neal Adams'-- who drew the first issue of the 1970s KILLRAVEN series! So, you could say he was a good fit. But the story, as it turned out, did NOT-- REALLY-- fit into the original continuity! Fans-- like me-- have been waiting years for the story to be continued. When the original series ended, it was in mid-story. Years later, Don McGregor & Craig Russell did their graphic novel, and if you read it back-to-back with the earlier issues, it feels like it was written the next month. Just picks up like no time had elapsed. They were hoping to do more... but somehow, NEVER DID. So all this time later, I hear they're doing KILLRAVEN... but no McGregor, no Russell, and, apparently, it's an "alternate version". SO WHO CARES?????
I'm not completely sure... it's possible the Davis KILLRAVEN might fit in between a couple of the earliest episodes (the ones before McGregor), but something tells me not.
If Marvel could get Moench & Gulacy to do a brand-new MASTER OF KUNG FU mini-series, then dammit, it's high time they got McGregor & Russell to do a new KILLRAVEN mini-series. (And the same goes for Englehart & Brunner on DR. STRANGE.)
Registered: Aug 2003
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Honestly, it puzzles me that the Busiek era is so popular. Maybe it has something to do with not reading it in real time -- as I said earlier in this thread, I wasn't into comics during the late 1990s and early 2000s and didn't start catching up until 2005. Maybe it's a technical thing -- I don't think Busiek was particularly good at pacing or at writing action sequences. Maybe it's a generational thing -- Busiek is one generation older than me, and he was captivated by a different Avengers era than I was. One particular point of contention that I have with Busiek is that he seems to be part of the sizable margin of Avengers fans who put the first 200 issues on a pedastal, whereas I think that there's a lot of good stuff there, but also a lot of not-so-good stuff. Then there's Busiek's tendency to belittle my beloved Harras/Epting era, which leads me to believe that he's jealous -- after all, Harras & Epting came up with something different and exciting that revitalized Avengers (creatively if not commercially), while Busiek rode the warmed-over nostalgia train straight to the bank. Busiek was pretty damn lucky that he had superior artwork for most of his run: Perez, Pacheco, Immonen, Epting, Davis, Reis -- it made his stories a lot more tolerable to me, on the first reading at least (each time I re-read them, which isn't often, I find something else I don't like.)
Perez, of course, was the artist who got the book up and running, and in my opinion, his second run on Avengers is some of the best art of his career -- I feel that there were several years, from the late 1980s through the mid 1990s, where Perez wasn't quite as good as he was capable of, and these Avengers issues are a complete return to peak form.
Now, where the actual stories are concerned...the first arc, where almost everyone who was ever an Avenger assmebles to battle Morgan Le Fay, is good fun for the most part, with some enchanting medieval-fantasyland imagery, but it also establishes a recurring weakness of Busiek's that's similar to one of Shooter's: the villain is so powerful that he or she can only be defeated by a plot contrivance -- in this case, Morgan suddenly acting like a psychotic two-year-old; I just don't buy it. The follow-up issue, where the Big Three plus Jan & Hank come up with a new lineup, has one panel that makes me angry just thinking about it: Sersi, back in that horrible green bikini, rejecting the offer to rejoin but telling them to invite her to the next party, as if the Harras/Epting stories had never happened; the only way I can cope with that panel is by telling myself that it's a shape-shifter posing as Sersi, and that one day, my Sersi, the real Sersi, will return. The final lineup includes ex-New Warriors Firestar and Justice, both characters I like, but not the way that Busiek would consistently mis-characterize them. The new team's first official battle is against the Squadron Supreme, who are being mind-controlled yet again, as if Busiek couldn't think of anything better; eventually -- in the 1998 Annual, drawn by Pacheco -- the two teams combine forces, with some help from Swordsman II and Magdalene, to battle Imus Champion, an obscure villain who was forgettable back in the early 1970s and even more forgettable in the late 1990s; at least Philip and Magdalene get a dignified exit at the end. Next, there's a mini-crossover where Busiek cluelessly tries to tie up some loose ends from the Harras era, involving the Kree renegades and the Supreme Intelligence; this also provides a showcase for Busiek's inept long-term fall-rise-redemption storyarc for Carol Danvers (there was NOTHING in her previous appearances that suggested she was an alcoholic -- so much for Busiek's supposed respect for continuity.) Then, Busiek's forgettable creations Triathlon and Silverclaw (who both remind me of the token minority members from Superfriends) step into the spotlight, while the villain this time is Moses Magnum, if ever there was a more stuck-in-the-1970s villain. After a battle against the Grim Reaper and a pack of zombie ex-Avengers returned from the dead, there were humdrum guest appearances by the Thunderbolts, the New Warriors, and the Beast, as Busiek started introducing villains of his own creation: Jonathan Tremont and his self-help cult, the Triune Understanding, Lord Templar and his Avatars, and the all-brawn-no-brains Pagan, all of them with potential that was never lived up to in the long run. There followed a very dissapointing three-issue arc guest-written and guest-penciled by Jerry Ordway, who is capable of better things. But it bought Busiek & Perez enough time to put some extra effort into their next, and arguably, best arc, Ultron Unlimited. I feel the same way about it that I feel about David Michelinie's Taskmaster arc: it hits all the right notes, and it's a good read, an anomaly of its era as far as my personal tastes go. Plus, there's the clever revelation that Hank programmed Ultron with his own brain patterns, one of those "But of course! Why didn't somebody come up with that before?" moments. If Busiek had managed to come up with equally good stories during the remainder of his Avengers run, I would have a more positive opinion of it.
I had originally intended to add a review of Busiek's 12-issue time-travel limited series Avengers Forever, but after a few issues I had to admit to myself that it's borderline unreadable, even with the copious footnotes, and I ended up mostly looking at Pacheco's wonderful art and ignoring the text.
Next week: Perez, Immonen, Epting and Davis keep the book afloat, but rough waters are just around the corner.
quote:Originally posted by Stealth: The follow-up issue, where the Big Three plus Jan & Hank come up with a new lineup, has one panel that makes me angry just thinking about it: Sersi, back in that horrible green bikini, rejecting the offer to rejoin but telling them to invite her to the next party, as if the Harras/Epting stories had never happened; the only way I can cope with that panel is by telling myself that it's a shape-shifter posing as Sersi, and that one day, my Sersi, the real Sersi, will return. keep the book afloat, but rough waters are just around the corner.
Well, she was the only Eternal who got panel time AND was still mindwiped at the end of Eternals #7, so... *shrugs*
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Avengers #30 - #49 What saved Avengers fandom in the mid to late 60’s according to my Dad, then a wee lad, was the return of Giant-Man, now known as Goliath! Seeing the Wasp on the cover of #28 and then Hank’s AWESOME return in #30 as Goliath really marked a turning point in getting this back to being ‘The Avengers’. Following that were some great stories, and although sometimes the main stories or art suffered, the subplots are what made this run such a classic Marvel run. Goliath was definitely the star now, and Hawkeye was a close second and things continued to pick up with Herc joining, Bill Foster being part of the cast (one of my all-time favorite Marvel supporting characters), the Black Widow and some interesting villains (Living Laser, Whirlwind, etc.). And then once again the team began to change, and in a very good way. The Black Knight is by far one of my favorite Marvel heroes of all, and he was welcome here. And the way the exited Hercules, Cap, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver was done really well, in a way leaving them open for future stories.
I agree that at this point, the Avengers got really, really good. In fact, this coming up is one of my favorite Avengers periods ever, if not my absolute favorite. John Buscema’s artwork was phenomenal and at this point Roy Thomas came into his own. If #1-16 was the golden age of great Avengers stories, at this point we are on the cusp of its Silver Age with the Buscema giving us the best artwork since Kirby and Thomas channeling everything good about Stan’s Silver Age Marvel.
Heh, I think the return of Giant-Man might've been more excitement from your dad! jk. I can see one of the originals returning injecting some excitement after the kooky quartet was getting old.
But I also think John Buscema helped alot. His work was head & shoulders above the rest at that time.
I agree with Stealth that after #48/49 is when things got good. Infact, IMO this is when superhero soap opera was born.
I'm going to try to go in order in respond to some of these posts cause they are so good.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
"Honestly, it puzzles me that the Busiek era is so popular."
Maybe it had to do with what it was following? I stopped reading Marvel IN GENERAL about 6 months after Harras took over AVENGERS, so I missed a lot-- and everything I heard made me think I wasn't missing anything. Busiek & Perez were part of "HEROES RETURN", that promotional push that felt like a apology for "HEROES REBORN". Also, Perez' art was better than I ever remembered it being, and this time, not only did he stay for a good, long, consistent run, but whenever they ad fill-ins, they tended to have as good or better art.
"Then there's Busiek's tendency to belittle my beloved Harras/Epting era, which leads me to believe that he's jealous"
Maybe he never read those issues? Sure would make it easier to ignore tham or pretend they never happened...
"it made his stories a lot more tolerable to me, on the first reading at least (each time I re-read them, which isn't often, I find something else I don't like.)"
I hate when that happens with movies. Bad movies is one thing, but there's movies I really LIKE where, each time I sit thru them, their faults get bigger and bigger. Like THUNDERBALL, YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, and THE SPY WHO LOVED ME. (I once read an article which tore SPY apart scene-by-scene-- every criticism stood out so glaringly because they all made sense, it was a sort of "keep things moving so the audience won't notice this", and as a result, while the film still looks great, I've never been able to appreciate it as much since. Logically, it makes NO SENSE AT ALL.)
"The final lineup includes ex-New Warriors Firestar and Justice"
I had no idea who the hell these people were, and the way they were written didn't make me wanna care, either.
"The new team's first official battle is against the Squadron Supreme, who are being mind-controlled yet again, as if Busiek couldn't think of anything better"
Instead of "Justice League done right", every time they'd pop up, they'd make the JLA look great by comparison. (Was Busiek taking under-the-table money from DC??)
"Busiek's inept long-term fall-rise-redemption storyarc for Carol Danvers (there was NOTHING in her previous appearances that suggested she was an alcoholic -- so much for Busiek's supposed respect for continuity.)"
I wonder if it isn't something about her starting life as a supporting character in CAPTAIN MARVEL, the book "nobody" wanted to work on? Gerry Conway cast her as a partially-amnesiac POWER GIRL wannabe (who was a swipe of Supergirl, who was a swipe of Mary Marvel...), Chris Claremont claimed it took him 2 years to figure out what the heck to DO with her (so much for that era's #1 "hotshot writer"), David Michelinie treated her like CRAP, then Claremont treated her EVEN WORSE as a way of getting back at Michelinie... I mean, DAMN. All that time, I just wanted my strong, intelligent, confident & gorgeous blonde powerhouse, not all this "so damaged she can't even stand up" crap. (There's a character like her, oddly enough, in the STORMBOY comic I've been working on-- I wonder if the thing will ever get finished. I treat her with more respect than most of these guys have treated Carol over the years.)
"Jonathan Tremont and his self-help cult, the Triune Understanding"
Good God, was there ever a storyline that just dragged on forever as badly as this one? He keeps trying to convince people he's on the up-and-up, Triathlon, who started out interesting, turns out to be involved with this conspiracy, HE doesn't say anything about it, then he comes on real strong as if, so what, they're okay guys... by the time it was over, I just wanted Tremont DEAD and gone-- permanently.
"Ultron Unlimited"
Ohhh-- I HATED this thing! One more case of bringing back an old villain, AGAIN, and upping the ante, higher and higher, to simply monstrous proportions. And this wasn't even the LAST story with Ultron, was it???
"I had originally intended to add a review of Busiek's 12-issue time-travel limited series Avengers Forever"
Oh don't wimp out on us now! C'mon, SOMEBODY's gotta refresh my memory about that thing. It was too deeply involved in the overlong mess that followed.
Registered: Aug 2003
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
Wow, I loved Busieks run, and the stuff he ignored was stuff I didn't happen to like anyway...
And Avengers Forever rocked, IMO. I love continuity porn. I couldn't tell you what it was about *now,* but I couldn't even tell you what the hell Darkseid was up to in the Great Darkness Saga these days, I just remember liking and understanding it at the time.
Registered: Aug 2006
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The 360’s – the first time I ever noticed gimmicky covers. I remember thinking, ‘Hey, this is kind of cool’. Talk about overdoing something though—I hope we never see them again.
Proctor/Gatherers Saga continues – the Anti-Vision was awesomely portrayed as creepy and villainous and served the purpose of returning the Vision to his colorful roots. And it kicked off the next leg of the Saga, which only furthered the excellence of the then current Avengers. The return of Cap is great, as is his amazement at Sersi, Black Knight, Herc and others and the angst they are feeling. The Black Knight continues to develop into my favorite Avenger with his ‘whatever it takes’ attitude, and the love triangle b/t Dane, Sersi and Crystal heats up to a point where it becomes my favorite in Marvel history. To say I love this era is an understatement. I’ve repeated myself so many times that I almost don’t want to get into it again, but I could talk for post after post about why this era was so great. Each Avenger clicked, complete with personality flaws and dramatic moments and each issue was better than the next. Proctor’s mystery was truly intriguing, and the gradual deterioration of Sersi was scary and terribly interesting, as we wondered what exactly was going on. And through it all, Crystal and the Black Knight become closer and closer despite themselves.
Galen Kor – and suddenly it shifts gears back to the Kree fallout, in what may be the best story arc of the entire run! The introduction of Deathcry, which as Stealth says, is incredibly seemless, leads right into the follow-up of Operation: Galactic Storm in a kick-ass story. Herc, Dane, Crystal all captured by the Kree! Hank Pym returns as Giant-Man—yay! Giant Man kicks the crap out of a Sentry—double yay!! The entire Earth in trouble! The ultimate kick-ass battle with Magdalene and Deathcry helping out! I was blow away.
Giant-Man – I admit, that at the time in my youth, it was the return of Giant-Man that tipped things over the edge and made me love this run more than anything. I’ve said before that Giant-Man is one of my Dad’s all time favorite heroes (tied with Spidey and Iron Man), and that has influenced me from the first time he read me a comic—probably Avengers #1, though my memory plays tricks on me. I personally love Hank as Giant-Man and Goliath, but loathe him as Yellowjacket and hate when he’s plains-clothes Dr. Pym too. His return as Giant-Man was a ‘cheer’ moment for me, and it was executed beautifully. And Harras does what he does best, just like he was doing with Vision at the time. He was moving the characters forward, albeit in a way that made old fans cheer, but not dwelling on the past. There was no trauma or all the other baggage the character has being addressed, there was just kick-ass Giant Man as part of the team. I loved it. Busiek made some very heavy mistakes later by retreading old ground with Hank. If anything, I prefer him as Goliath, but Giant-Man is just as good.
Deathcry – despite feeling that I should hate her, I kind of have a soft-spot for her. Agree completely with Stealth about Busiek and other’s criticism. I mean really—Triathlon?
Bloodties – you know, I remember loving this too. At this point IMO, the X-titles were pretty awesome at the time too, and the combination of both of them and Harras’ Avengers made for a superb crossover. AWC was still weak at this time, but US Agent shined a little. Of course, the story got off-kilter at one point and didn’t turn out to be the next great Marvel Crossover, ut overall, I thought it worked well. Exodus makes for a great villain and the use of Luna here showcased how central a role in the MU she has. Crystal was awesome here, and I like how Wanda and the Black Knight are portrayed. I haven’t read this in years though, so I probably have rose-colored glasses.
The End of the Proctor/Gatherers Saga – and the final issues of this story from #372 – 375 are damn near perfect in my opinion. The Gatherers continue to prove to be a threat, while the drama between the Black Knight, Crystal and Sersi deepens, now with Quicksilver (FINALLY!) added into the mix. Sersi’s apparent madness becomes more and more understandable and the Black Knight finally reaches a point where he is able to break the Gans Josen (know I spelled that wrong). All the other Avengers shine with a bunch of guest stars included, and Quicksilver and the Black Knight finally learn the truth about Proctor in what has to be one of the best final pages of any Avenger’s story. The final battle is amazing, and even the inclusion of Thunderstrike gave a sense of completion to Harras and Epting’s entire run. It truly is one of the greatest Avenger’s stories ever told—if not *thee* greatest.
The end result was the exit of the Black Knight and Sersi and the end of what is my favorite Marvel romance of all time, that between Crystal and the Black Knight. On the one hand, I recognize brilliance when I read it and love the finale, but on the other hand, it was heart-breaking to read. But to a young boy, the Black Knight’s heroic decision to go with Sersi seemed *so* powerful.
Deodoto and later issues – Deodoto has always been hit or miss with me, and this was an era where his art was just way to over the top. And the line-up began to be more pronounced, so that Deathcry had more screen time, Giant Man was done well, but needed better interaction, and now Quicksilver became a full-time member, which meant it was nice to see a follow-up on where his and Crystal’s story would go from here (as well as get him back in Avengers, where I feel he belongs rather than X-Factor), although I didn’t like him wanting to reconcile with Crystal. The Taylor Madison/Herc story felt kind of like a cop-out, complete with Zeus involvement coming out of left field, so I can understand how people may have hated it.
The Crossing – perhaps the worst Avengers story ever told. Completely all over the field, it was impossible to keep track of read and made little sense. Mantis as the surprise villainous, Kang’s continuity-messy ‘hidden history of the Avengers’, Iron Man betraying them and then teen Tony arriving…it was just crap. It was the epitome of what was wrong with the 90’s. Really, I almost can’t find words venomous enough to talk about it.
Pre-Onslought – right before Onslought, Waid came in and attempted to get the book on track, but ultimately it was too discombobulated.
Heroes Reborn – Awful. Really, there isn’t one good thing to say about it. Ok, it beats the Crossing, but c’mon.
[ March 14, 2007, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Cobalt Kid ]
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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While I really liked the Harras era I didn't think it was perfect. And then Heroes Reborn really made me miss the old Avengers. So Kurt going old school was fine by me. But yes his ignoring some of the more recent Avengers history was good and bad. I guess it depends on the reader.
I really didn't care for the Triathlon story at all. Or the villain Templar, etc. What really made angry was what he did with the Vision and Hank Pym.
The Vision and the Human Torch were now two sepereate androids. Good. I hated the Vision always owing everything he is to others...Ultron, Wonder Man, Human Torch I. I rather him be his own android. Kurt made him a chrono-clone...ugh. Anyways, that is not as big a deal as hank.
Pym returns as YJ? ARGH?!?!?! That was very forced. Infact, I didn't care for Harras returning him as Giant-Man. But ok that's fine. But YJ? The split personality thing?
Engleheart did awesome by making the character Dr. Pym. He was a sci-fi doctor type of hero and it fit. Then the writers want to return him to the hero he was long ago...and it never worked. Still doesn't. YJ???
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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![[Love]](graemlins/love.gif)
even though the Black Knight has been mind-melded with Sersi. In #362, the Anti-Vision wounds Swordsman and threatens Crystal before Sersi kicks his ass. The next four issues begin with a raid on Proctor’s citadel, where the now-erratic Black Knight defies Captain America in mid-battle and Proctor vanishes after setting the citadel on self-destruct mode and all the Gatherers except Magdalene are apparently blown up; this segues seamlessly into the introduction of Deathcry and the return of renegade Kree-man Galen Kor, this time with his private army of fellow renegades invading Earth along with a fleet of Kree Sentries and a new Nega-Bomb! Desperate for reinforcements, the Avengers draft Magdalene and Hank Pym, the latter returning as Giant-Man and deciding to make it full-time. The last-page revelation of a powerful, supposedly deceased villain as the Kree renegades’ supplier would have more resonance if it hadn’t turned into an unresolved plot thread, but overall this is one of my all-time favorite Avengers storyarcs. I’ve never made any secret that I hated the non-superpowered Hank Pym in that stupid jumpsuit, and I welcomed his return as Giant-Man, in a new costume somewhat reminiscent of Dave Cockrum’s Colossal Boy costume (although the belts and pockets are a very 1990s mistake.) The scene where Giant-Man single-handedly out-fights one of the Kree sentries is a classic Avengers moment, as is this exchange between him and Captain America at the end:![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
)![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Kurt made him a chrono-clone...ugh. Anyways, that is not as big a deal as hank.
