posted
"At least Tom Palmer was still around to provide an attractive finish to the art."
Yeah, he really became for THE AVENGERS what Joe Sinnott had long been to FANTASTIC FOUR (at least, until John Byrne decided he wanted the art to look really ugly on purpose-- a tribute to the "George Bell" era, no doubt?).
"Byrne didn't even finish this story because he quit both Avengers and WCA so abruptly"
He seems to do a LOT of that, doesn't he? ("I'm gonna take my ball and go home!")
I remember at first thinking Rage was really Luke CAGE, in disguise, since he was MIA at the time and wanted for a murder he didn't commit (and which John Byrne exonerated him for-- in NAMOR THE SUB-MARINER, of all places). The truth of his identity & background was quite surprising, but to me, somewhat disappointing.
Larry Hama first impressed me as a penciller, on 4 of the first 5 episodes of IRON FIST (all inked by Dick Giordano). Great stuff. Later, he wrote the even more brutally violent SAMURAI series in EERIE magazine, all illustrated by Val Mayerik. (This was later continued in a book titled YOUNG MASTER, also by Mayerik, though i forget if Hama wrote it). I recall his AVENGERS being not that bad... but then, I'm sure there were a lot MORE, WORSE books I was reading at the time. I suppose one could say it was the culmination of Gruenwald, Byrne, Hama, Nicieza AND early Harras that finally made me stop reading the book. Oh well!
"Quasar's early Avengers appearances were so unmemorable"
Anybody remember his debut in CAPTAIN AMERICA, as "Marvel Man" ?
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Cobie, what would you think of the idea of putting Bendis on trial in this thread?
Avengers Volume One # 334-344
The striking cover to # 334 makes it clear what has been lacking in Avengers for the last few years: a sense of urgency. As Captain America charges to rescue Quicksilver from the assault of new villain Thane Ector, one can feel the intensity and the darkness rushing through Avengers again -- something not seen since the Roger Stern/John Buscema era. From here on, the raw energy of Bob Harras's story builds and builds across six bi-weekly issues -- Ector and his warlike race, the Brethren, attacking first the Inhumans' settlement on the moon, then Earth; Sersi bringing out shades of grey in Ector; the team of Black Panther, Beast, Quasar and Hank Pym investigating the origin of the Brethren; Crystal earnestly volunteering to join the Avengers; the shocking cosmic-level revelations involving both the Brethren, and their former captor, the Collector; and at the end, a rousingly good final battle.
Where the artwork is concerned, there are still the rough spots inevitable to bi-weekly releases. As Steve Epting tells it in a 1993 interview:
quote:Howard Mackie called me from a mailed-in submission, right before he left editing. At that time, Avengers was running bi-weekly, and another penciler was needed to alternate every other issue. [Andy Kubert, who pencilled only # 334] didn't work out, and I wound up doing [almost] all the bi-weeklies.
Had Mackie not been replaced as editor by Ralph Macchio, it's quite possible that Harras would have been only the latest writer to pass through the revolving door. Harras himself confirmed it in a 1993 interview:
quote:As to how he came to write Avengers, Harras jokingly related that he was asked to help out with the writing chores "because the book was going bi-weekly...you know, it was only a temporary thing, because I wasn't intending to do the book on a regular basis," he said. "No one ever said, 'Okay, here's Avengers, it's yours.' It was more like, 'Do me a favor, handle it for a couple of months.' I'm still wondering when it's going to end," he added, laughing.
Following a fill-in issue (# 340), Fabian Nicieza guest-wrote a two-parter guest starring the New Warriors (pencilled by Epting, showing for the first time on Avengers just how good he really is). The main purpose of this story was to write Rage out of Avengers and into New Warriors. Nicieza's story, dealing with racial tensions (this was during the aftermath of the Rodney King beating) is much better-written than his previous Avengers story, although it is definitely more typical of New Warriors.
# 343 is where the Harras/Epting era truly begins: Crystal being officially welcomed into the team, and the last-page introduction of Swordsman II and Magdalene. There is also the introduction of the first stable lineup since the Stern/Buscema era -- Captain America, Black Widow, Black Knight, Crystal, Vision, Hercules, Sersi (MIA), and Thor Substitute (who would mercifully be written out of the book after about a year) -- and one of the high points of this issue is the conversation between Captain America and Black Widow:
BW: Steve, it's nearly 2 AM...we've got an early meeting with the West Coast branch tomorrow. Is anything wrong?
CA: No, 'Tasha. Just couldn't sleep. I've got things on my mind, so I decided to get some work done.
BW: Are you worried about Crystal and ["Thor"]? Really, there's no need, they did fine...or...is it Rage?
CA: Partially. It just seems too many mistakes are being made lately, 'Tasha. Members are coming and going as if there were a revolving door here...there's no stability to the team. Sandman leaves before his ID card is printed! Rage turns out to be a child...even Sersi hasn't been seen in weeks! It makes you wonder...
BW: Wonder what?
CA: Being an Avenger used to mean something! It was a mark of honor, distinction. We were a fellowship of friends. Now it's...I don't know...changed. We've become an ill-defined group of strangers. Stop me if I'm sounding like an elitist.
BW: You? Never. No, you're just a man who cares.
CA: Maybe I'm living in the past. Lord knows I've been accused enough about that in my time. But I can't help worrying. The Avengers gave my life meaning again, I believe in what they stand for. And I can't shake the feeling that something's gone terribly wrong. [pause] Now it is time to hit the hay. Sorry for the maudlin speech.
BW: Steve, you always make maudlin speeches...that's why we love you!
CA: Please...!
# 344 features a thrilling battle against Swordsman II and Magdalene, and the introduction of mysterious new villain Proctor, beginning the longest, most complex, and most ambitious Avengers story since Mantis/Swordsman/Vision/Scarlet Witch. Magdalene is often assumed to be an alternate-world version of Mantis, but according to The Appendix to the Handbook of the Marvel Universe (http://www.marvunapp.com), she's actually the Marvel analog to DC's Big Barda. I really love Swordsman II (Philip) and Magdalene. They've been missing from the MU for almost a decade now, and I'd love to see them back someday (but not until Marvel's current editorial regime is gone.)
posted
Well, she was never Mantis - I mean, we SAW her MU counterpart (and saw her killed off at that!) didn't we?
One thing that always bugged me a bit though - given Proctor's history, he took being spurned by her as opposed to killing her & Swordsman straight away?
quote:Well, she was never Mantis - I mean, we SAW her MU counterpart (and saw her killed off at that!) didn't we?
Of course we did. But you may be surprised (or not) at how many people on the internet overlook the details and automatically assume that just because she's with an alternate-world Swordsman, it automatically means she's an alternate-world Mantis. Another thing that a lot of people overlook is the great scene in # 357 where the Avengers are questioning Swordsman, and he reveals that the Mantis of his world looked nothing like the Earth-616 Mantis, but she was a dead ringer for Moondragon.
quote:One thing that always bugged me a bit though - given Proctor's history, he took being spurned by her as opposed to killing her & Swordsman straight away?
It's a legimate flaw in the story, but I can live with it. And since we never learned that much about these characters' back story, I think it is possible to come up with a credible reason for Proctor letting Swordsman and Magdalene live.
A couple things I forgot to post earlier:
-- Steve Epting's style was particularly refreshing at the time, because he wasn't a Jim Lee clone or a Rob Liefeld clone. Epting combined the best of the old (smooth, eye-pleasing draftsmanship) and the new (dramatic layouts, particularly from the late 350s on.)
-- Starting with # 343, Tom Palmer began doing double-duty as both inker and colorist. The improvement in the book's look was considerable, both richer and more subtle at the same time.
posted
"he reveals that the Mantis of his world looked nothing like the Earth-616 Mantis, but she was a dead ringer for Moondragon"
This makes sense. I recall a scene (somebody??) where Heather Douglas was complaining about how "superior" her upbringing was compared to Mantis (did SHE ever have a "real" name?), and she felt somehow gyped that the Kotati had picked that WHORE to become The Celestial Madonna instead of her. (And if memory serves, someone pointed out it was Heather's very air of "superiority" that nixed her as one of the choices! Like Thor, pre-Donald Blake, she needed to learn some humility.
"Steve Epting's style was particularly refreshing at the time, because he wasn't a Jim Lee clone or a Rob Liefeld clone. Epting combined the best of the old (smooth, eye-pleasing draftsmanship) and the new (dramatic layouts, particularly from the late 350s on.)"
I remember thinking his drawing reminded me of Neal Adams, except with layouts that better aided the story (less of that, "LOOK at me! Aren't I FLASHY just for the sake of it?" kinda thing).
I really dug it when Steve Epting teamed up with Dan Jurgens on AQUAMAN. At the time, it looked like the most "70's Marvel" book I had seen in ages! DAMN shame it got cancelled in only about a year. It's mostly been chaos & crapola since.
Registered: Aug 2003
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As I’ve said many times before, this is one of my favorite eras of the Avengers, if not my actual favorite. When the Harras Avengers were coming out, it was when I started reading Avengers in ‘real time’, aka when I was reading the actual issues coming out off the newsstands, as opposed to reading my Father’s massive boxes of back-issues. Harras had a similar type of style to writing the Avengers that Stern and Englehart had, with some definite additional qualities to his writing that I loved. What he would do was acknowledge all of Marvel’s past continuity, and then move forward with it, doing *new* plots and bits with the characters, taking them new places that made sense when viewed in reference to the old. That is the truest and purest way to write in a shared universe with a shared continuity, and Harras not only was able to address that, he was able to make it work for him, just like Stern was able to.
The truly great Harras stuff comes slightly after these initial ten issues, but right away we see some great bits.
- Crystal – one of my favorite Marvel characters of all. Her addition to the Avengers helps *make* the team for me, and I love every minute of it. Its her relationship with the Black Knight that is perhaps my favorite of all Marvel romances, but I also love the drama-filled relationships (not romantic per se) with the Vision and Quicksilver and the rest. I love Crystal here, and I think this is the best she’s ever been written in her history.
- The line-up. The line-up during this era is one that is really very cool. In a way, its full of classic Avengers that never had a chance to really shine before, but it also feels so fresh and so firmly plant in this era. Hercules finally gets some great ongoing character bits and dynamics, and Sersi comes into her own. The Black Knight becomes the break out star, with his ‘whatever it takes’ attitude, and the Black Widow shines for the first time since basically her run in Daredevil’s title in the early 70’s. At first, this tried and true Avenger’s fan thought it would be odd for Captain America not to be the team leader, but by the middle of Harras’ run, I wanted Natasha to have that role.
- that scene you posted Stealth is a great example of the type of dialogue and scenes Harras would do. He could truly convey the sense of history, sense of camaraderie, and sense of progression in a brief second.
- The Proctor & the Gatherers story – although this really comes into play later, the beginning of this story was also very well-done, full of intrigue and mystery and adding a whole new angle to what was to come. Between this ongoing storyline and Operation: Galactic Storm and its ramifications (specifically the follow-up Kree story which I thought was even better), Harras was able to keep two running threads going throughout his run.
- Swordsman II and Magdalene – I like these two characters as well, and I like how they interact with the Avengers throughout. The Swordsman is cool here (for the first time ever in the history of the character) and I’m glad to know they’re out there somewhere (Busiek sent them *somewhere* in his Avengers annual). I like that Harras introduced new characters like Stern and Englehart before him, even if they are generally seen as ‘his’.
- BTW, I love that Moondragon/Mantis bit the Swordsman drops in. There’s all kinds of cool stuff like that in these issues.
- Epting’s art – I’m a huge fan of Steve Epting’s art and feel he’s doing his best art today on Captain America. Here it was a pleasure too, and I definitely see the Neal Adams resemblance, though also a John Buscema one too in a way. It was a very different kind of art when compared to everything else at the time (unfortunately, Mike Deodato’s art that followed didn’t do it for me, though I generally like his art when he’s ‘reigned in’.)
Also, a word on Thunderstrike/Eric Masterson – well, just like I’ve read the entire Spidey run many times, I’ve also read the entire run of Thor comics from his very start to the current issues a few times. Where I generally hated Eric Masterson at first, I’ve come to love all the eras of Thor, no matter how bad they got—and man, where there some really crappy eras. So, its funny, but I’ve come to have a soft spot for Eric, though I didn’t like it when Thor was ‘Thor-lite’ with Eric at the helm. Rereading the Harras Avengers issues though, I kind of like that he was there for a bit before they got rid of him. The problem with Thunderstrike was that he was honestly just ‘filling Thor’s spot’, so when the real deal finally came back, which was needed, Thunderstrike had to stand on his own, which he couldn’t. I wish somehow he could’ve, but that’s here nor there.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
One little point on the art - I thought and think Tom Palmer's inks were a really bad mismatch with Epting's pencils. Take a look at Epting's fill-in on Uncanny X-Men #319 where Dan Green & Tim Townsend inked the pencils very lightly to see what I mean.
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: As I’ve said many times before, this is one of my favorite eras of the Avengers, if not my actual favorite. When the Harras Avengers were coming out, it was when I started reading Avengers in ‘real time’, aka when I was reading the actual issues coming out off the newsstands, as opposed to reading my Father’s massive boxes of back-issues.
The Harras era was my first "real time" Avengers reading, too. I had been raised on funny-animal comics, and I only got into superhero comics right after I graduated high school. Along with Peter David's Hulk, Alan Davis's Excalibur, Alan Grant & Barry Kitson's L.E.G.I.O.N., and Mark Waid's Flash, it's still just as much of a good read today as it was back then, maybe better. That doesn't hold true of other comics I was reading at the time (to give one example, the Danny Ketch Ghost Rider and the other Midnight Sons books. )
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Harras had a similar type of style to writing the Avengers that Stern and Englehart had, with some definite additional qualities to his writing that I loved. What he would do was acknowledge all of Marvel’s past continuity, and then move forward with it, doing *new* plots and bits with the characters, taking them new places that made sense when viewed in reference to the old. That is the truest and purest way to write in a shared universe with a shared continuity, and Harras not only was able to address that, he was able to make it work for him, just like Stern was able to.
Absolutely. Thanks to Harras, we had:
- A Sersi who was intense and moody without ever losing her sense of style or her sense of humor.
- A Black Knight who was bold and assertive, rather than reactive.
- A Hercules who was still a ferocious warrior, but who had actually learned from his lessons in humility during the Stern Era.
- A Vision who slowly regained the personality that Byrne had stripped him of.
And of course...
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: - Crystal – one of my favorite Marvel characters of all. Her addition to the Avengers helps *make* the team for me, and I love every minute of it. Its her relationship with the Black Knight that is perhaps my favorite of all Marvel romances, but I also love the drama-filled relationships (not romantic per se) with the Vision and Quicksilver and the rest. I love Crystal here, and I think this is the best she’s ever been written in her history.
Once again, I totally agree. As written by Harras, Crystal took responsibility for her selfish actions in Steve Engelhart's stories and searched for redemption by joining the Avengers. She was a kind person, a loving mother, and a kick-ass superheroine all at once; I would say she went so far as to inspire me to try to be nicer and less selfish! Not bad for a fictional character.
It's sad that, to paraphrase something Reboot said earlier in this thread, the only thing anyone at Marvel remembers about her today is that she cheated on Quicksilver. No, it's more than sad, it's a crime.
quote:Originally posted by Reboot: One little point on the art - I thought and think Tom Palmer's inks were a really bad mismatch with Epting's pencils. Take a look at Epting's fill-in on Uncanny X-Men #319 where Dan Green & Tim Townsend inked the pencils very lightly to see what I mean.
I don't completely disagree about Palmer's inks over Epting's pencils, but I think there were more instances of Palmer retaining Epting's essence than of Palmer overwhelming Epting. I think the main problem is that Epting is simply once of the most difficult artists to ink, and I've never been 100% pleased with anyone's work. Al Williamson preserved the delicacy of Epting's pencils, but he also tended to oversimplify; Rick Magyar kept the amount of detail right, but his lines tended to be stiff where Epting's linework is fluid. Really, Epting's best inker is Epting himself. Here's a good example:
When I think of Operation: Galactic Storm, I think grandeur, I think colorful spectacle...but most importantly, I think space opera with substance, tragedy on an epic scale, and one of the most daring endings ever published in a mainstream superhero comic book.
Despite being spread out across 19 (!) issues (22 if you count the epilogues) of 7 different comics (Avengers, Avengers West Coast, Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Quasar, Wonder Man), there are hardly any wasted panels at all. Unlike Marvel’s earlier attempts at this kind of mega-crossover – Evolutionary War in the 1988 annuals and Atlantis Attacks in the 1989 annuals – Operation: Galactic Storm has a tightly structured and well-thought-out story. It began with a plot for Quasar’s solo book, which Mark Gruenwald the writer quickly realized was too big for just one book, and which Mark Gruenwald the Executive Editor realized would please the Powers That Be who wanted the next Big Event. Although many writers and editors would work on the story (and, according to Ralph Macchio, even the letterers and colorists contributed story bits), there was a firm creative core in the trio of Gruenwald, Bob Harras, and Fabian Nicieza, who together produced a detailed outline. I personally think that Nicieza (who had no writing credit, and whose only O:GS credit of any kind was as editor of Wonder Man) is the true unsung hero, because later that same year (1992), there was another surprisingly good mega-crossover, the X-Cutioner’s Song in the X-Books, and that one was mostly Nicieza’s baby.
Operation: Galactic Storm is a sequel of sorts to the Kree-Skrull War – once again, there are two alien empires fighting, with Earth caught in the middle – but there are crucial differences: 1) This time it’s the Kree vs. the Shi’ar with the Skrulls in a sneakier (but important) position, and 2) This time there are a clear beginning, middle, and end – a particularly powerful ending which carries overtones of America’s bombing of Hiroshima during World War II.
This story is also notable for its cast of thousands: almost everyone who was ever an Avenger, plus guest appearances by Rick Jones, Her, Carol Danvers (as Binary), and the Starjammers, plus Kree villains varying from vintage (the Supreme Intelligence, Ronan the Accuser) to new (Captain Atlas, Korath, Shatterax) to ultra-obscure (Ultimus, Dr. Minerva), plus the Skrulls including Super-Skrull, plus the Shi’ar Imperial Guard a.k.a. Marvel’s Legion of Super-Heroes (including brand-new analogs of Dawnstar, Karate Kid, Rond Vidar, Matter-Eater Lad, and Bouncing Boy), plus Shi’ar Empress Lilandra and her mad sister Deathbird. Amazingly, out of all of these characters, there is not one who doesn't serve a purpose!
The extensive use of characters from the insular X-Corner of the Marvel Universe (authorized by Bob Harras in his role as X-Editor) has been criticized, which I think is ridiculous. Why should the X-Creators be the only ones to play with those beautiful Dave Cockrum-designed toys? Besides, as I said earlier in this thread, almost all of the key players of the Kree-Skrull War had been introduced in the pages of Fantastic Four, and no one complained about that.
As much as I love Operation: Galactic Storm, it’s not perfect, not with so many cooks at the same pot. The scripting varies wildly in quality, and the three Avengers tie-ins drawn by Steve Epting (# 345-347) are arguably the only good art. But, like the Celestial Madonna Saga, which also had a lot of dodgy art, it holds together as one sprawling epic of a story, and it stands the test of time. And now that Operation: Galactic Storm is finally available in trade paperbacks (two volumes), it can be appreciated by generations to come.
Finally, if only for the sake of completeness, here’s a checklist of all the issues:
Part 1: Captain America #398; Part 2: Avengers West Coast #80; Part 3: Quasar #32; Part 4: Wonder Man #7; Part 5: Avengers #345; Part 6: Iron Man #278; Part 7: Thor #445; Part 8: Captain America #399; Part 9: Avengers West Coast #81; Part 10: Quasar #33; Part 11: Wonder Man #8; Part 12: Avengers #346; Part 13: Iron Man #279; Part 14: Thor #446; Part 15: Captain America #400; Part 16: Avengers West Coast #82; Part 17: Quasar #34; Part 18: Wonder Man #9; Part 19: Avengers #347; Epilogue 1: Captain America #401; Epilogue 2: Quasar #35-36.
posted
One thing about those Avengers O:GS issues that really bugged me - Epting kept drawing Quasar with a gas mask. He didn't need one (and if his Q-bands improbably failed, he was in a lot of trouble with or without air) and the rest of the artists followed their references and left it off, meaning it only appeared in the Avengers chapters even when the action ran continuously in or out.
A few other things were wrong too - apparently no-one outside the Iron Man comic itself was aware of Iron Man's seriously poor state of health (most egregiously in the Cap epilogue, where he appears out-of-armour).
Still, good story overall indeed.
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Following Operation: Galactic Storm were some 1- and 2-part stories with the subplots sailing smoothly – in # 348, the Vision continues to evolve as Crystal becomes his confidant, while Black Knight and Hercules encounter Magdalene’s Earth-616 counterpart only for her to be “gathered” (erased from existence) by Proctor and Magdalene; in # 349, Hera and Ares make a wager to see who can bring Hercules more sorrow, right at the same time as Hercules begins to fall in love with a mortal woman, Taylor Madison (sadly, this subplot wouldn’t be resolved until after Epting had left and the book’s quality was in freefall); in # 350-351, two of the Starjammers, Raza and Hepzibah, are hired by a renegade Kree to assassinate the Black Knight as payback for his actions in Operation: Galactic Storm (this is a very good story, even though the second half is drawn by a different art team.)
Next is a three-part fill-in story arc, giving Harras, Epting, and Palmer a chance to catch their breath. When they come back in # 355, they continue to prove that they’re not interested in bringing back the same old super-villains by giving us the full team of Proctor’s Gatherers (Magdalene, Swordsman, Cassandra, Spoor and Coal Tiger), each one from a different alternate universes which were all destroyed under circumstances to be revealed much later; this issue also introduces Sersi’s new black-and-red costume, far less revealing and far more flattering; plus there’s a great scene where the Black Widow plays matchmaker for an unusually indecisive Hercules.
# 356 is a special issue to me, because it was the first issue of Avengers that I bought off the spinner rack instead of the back-issue bin; in it, the Avengers pursue the Gatherers to Wakanda, where they intend to “gather” Coal Tiger’s Earth-616 counterpart, the Black Panther! Great scene where Magdalene outfights the Vision, and some nice shades of grey from the Swordsman, who at the end is the one Gatherer captured by the Avengers.
# 357 is one of my favorite Avengers issues of all time: there’s no fighting in it, just a lot of great character moments giving Epting a chance to prove that, among Avengers artists, only John Buscema and George Perez are his equals when it comes to characterization. The Crystal/Black Knight/Sersi love triangle is in full bloom, the best of its sort since Scarlet Witch/Vision/Mantis. There’s also the memorable interrogation of the Swordsman which we’ve already mentioned earlier in this thread. And, most importantly, there’s the Black Widow organizing a celebration of the one-year-anniversary of this Avengers lineup. Thor Substitute is gone, and Captain America (who left temporarily after Operation: Galactic Storm) hasn’t returned yet, meaning that the cover shows none of “The Big Three” and the story proves that the Avengers didn’t need the “icons” to be a good book.
posted
So, this being a likely candidate for ‘My favorite Avengers era EVER’, including all the classic Silver Age #1-16 which has been imbedded as being the best to me since I was a wee pre-teen, I, of course, am late on commenting
As usual, Stealth’s comments are so much fun to read that I’m having as much fun reading them as I did reading the issues originally. My comments in brief:
- Operation: Galactic Storm – In my opinion, this was one of the few times where a Marvel Crossover totally succeeded on all levels (actually I agree about Executioner’s Song—during this brief era, it seemed Marvel started having good crossovers for the first time while DC’s became simply atrocious). The grandeur, the scale and the sheer amount of characters is what makes this, as well as the character scenes shown in each and every panel. Of course, this cemented my love for the Black Knight as a ‘do whatever it takes’ hero, and it also showcased a bunch of heroes throughout with good roles, especially Iron Man, Thor, and even some of the lesser-known like Living Lightning. Though I have most of the issues (missing the Quasar ones), I have to admit right away—I’ve never actually read O:GS the way it should be read, in chronological order. Such an oversight on my part is unforgivable—and will fixed one day! I especially love the use of the Skrulls here, and I think the Kree re-emerged as the ultimate bad-ass alien race in Marvel, only to be devastated, and then all surviving Kree shown since would have an additional scariness to them that added intensity to future stories. I’m also reminded that Wonder Man had his own book, and it reminds me of a recent PM I’ve had with Reboot where we mentioned that—which seems to be totally forgotten by all writers since (and not just Bendis/etc, but even Busiek), since he had some very real character growth in his solo comic. I actually enjoyed it, but then again, I read it when I was 12 or so, so its been awhile.
- In a way, the upcoming Proctor/Gatherers Saga is almost like a sequel to the Celestial Madonna Saga, and this is almost like a sequel to the Kree/Skrull War. I mean that very loosely of course, given the long history of great space drama in Avengers, but I think it speaks to how well done this era of the Avengers was—and it very much stood on its own (I only make those connections now, years later).
- Hercules/Taylor Madison – this was the first time IMO that Hercules truly had a great subplot in Avengers, that showed him as a very real person with the same emotions we all have. Though I think the ending was pretty awful farther down the road, I remember thinking that I really enjoyed this romance, especially the awkwardness seen in Hercules which was so rare for the character (I’m thinking of when she ate at the Mansion).
- Raza and Hepzibah – my favorite two Starjammers show up in a great story, but even more, it further cements the long-standing animosity that all surviving Kree have for the Black Knight. I really wish this could be followed up on, as you would expect tons and tons of survivors trying to make Dane (and therefore Earth) a continual target from here on in.
- Proctor and the Gatherers – here begins the real meat of the Proctor story, and I think everything from here on in until #375 is about perfect. The Gatherers make a very interesting team, and having almost all the rest of them be new to Avengers lore was a good move. Proctor himself is interesting and the evil-Vision subplot and Coal Tiger/Black Panther connection make for some very cool drama. The Swordsman (once caught) proves to be a character with a tremendous amount of depth (and Magdalene does later) and it speaks volumes for Harris writing that he could make an alternate Earth Swordsman such a likeable and interesting character.
- Harris’ continual use of history without dwelling on it. Again, this is probably one of the best aspects of the run, and a good example would be the ‘fake-out’ used to draw out the Avengers when a fake Johnny Storm appeals to Crystal for some help and she recognizes their long-standing relationship/friendship. It was little things like this, jam-packed in every issue, that made the book so much more enjoyable.
- The love triangle – as Stealth says, the Black Knight/Crystal/Sersi love triangle is probably the best Avengers romance subplot since Wanda/Vision/Mantis, complete with all the connecting characters that went along with both. There is a continual intensity that builds and builds each issue, with some very real human moments from all three characters, including Sersi, who is not painted to be a bad-guy despite her gradual shift towards madness. The addition of the Vision regaining his humanity (early on), then Proctor, and later Quicksilver, only further this.
- The line-up here is one of my favorites ever, and I agree that it shows you don’t need the big three. I do like the return of Cap coming up, and I really love the return of Hank Pym as Giant-Man, as well as the help of Swordsman, Magdalene and Deathcry, but the basic six post-O:GS (Black Widow, Hercules, Vision, Black Knight, Crystal, Sersi) set the tempo for a very intricate, drama-packed, characterization-filled Avengers line-up.
Oh, and cool tidbit Stealth! I’ve got one too that’s kinda funny. Around the issue where the Avengers are trapped in the snow with the fake Vision captured (and Deathcry first meets them), a very young Cobie (I’d say 13) decided that he was so impressed that I wrote my first letter (and only one) to a comic book, and had my Mom type it out for me. It basically told them that I, so sure of myself as the greatest fan of the Avengers in its history, totally approved of the direction they were taking, enjoyed the Black Widow as leader and wanted to see Dane with Crystal. I never got a reply (or it printed) but it was a pretty cool experience.
PS – in the last few weeks I’ve reread the entire Celestial Madonna Saga, and a large potion of Stern’s run, and I’ve meant to post more in depth comments on them…and will sometime soon
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: - Operation: Galactic Storm – In my opinion, this was one of the few times where a Marvel Crossover totally succeeded on all levels (actually I agree about Executioner’s Song—during this brief era, it seemed Marvel started having good crossovers for the first time while DC’s became simply atrocious).
Yeah...Eclipso, Death of Superman, Knightfall -- all the worst things about the 1990s in a nutshell. Whereas, for a while, Marvel was getting almost all the crossovers right, big and small (such as the Hulk/X-Factor crossover during the brief time that Peter David was writing both books.)
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: - Harris’ continual use of history without dwelling on it. Again, this is probably one of the best aspects of the run, and a good example would be the ‘fake-out’ used to draw out the Avengers when a fake Johnny Storm appeals to Crystal for some help and she recognizes their long-standing relationship/friendship. It was little things like this, jam-packed in every issue, that made the book so much more enjoyable.
"Use of history without dwelling on it." Thank you, Cobie, that sums it up perfectly. Harras always kept such things brief and to the point, unlike some other writers :cough: (Busiek) :cough: who were all like, "Look at me, I'm such a continuity expert!"
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Oh, and cool tidbit Stealth! I’ve got one too that’s kinda funny. Around the issue where the Avengers are trapped in the snow with the fake Vision captured (and Deathcry first meets them), a very young Cobie (I’d say 13) decided that he was so impressed that I wrote my first letter (and only one) to a comic book, and had my Mom type it out for me. It basically told them that I, so sure of myself as the greatest fan of the Avengers in its history, totally approved of the direction they were taking, enjoyed the Black Widow as leader and wanted to see Dane with Crystal. I never got a reply (or it printed) but it was a pretty cool experience.
That reminds me, I sent a letter to the Avengers editor during that time, too, but I can't seem to remember what I wrote in it. Then again, those were my heady and wild late teens...
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: PS – in the last few weeks I’ve reread the entire Celestial Madonna Saga, and a large potion of Stern’s run, and I’ve meant to post more in depth comments on them…and will sometime soon
Yay! I'm looking forward to that.
One last thing: it's been quite a while since this thread has had any posts about the current state of the Avengers family of books. Even though I don't read any of them myself, I would still like to see some posts about them here, because even though it's wonderful to look back on the classics, I really want this thread to have one foot in the present day.
posted
Celestial Madonna Story I'm such a lazy reviewer that I should have posted my thoughts when they were fresh about four weeks ago, when I read the entire Celestial Madonna Story--on one Friday night where I took a rare night in. I can say without a doubt that it was *better* than I remembered it being because all of the great things about it were still there, and I noticed even more stuff that I loved about it that got lost in the shuffle the previous time or two I read it.
First, its the little things, the characterization that reinforces how heroic each member of the Avengers was, while also showing how certain Avenger's had certain traits. One of the most powerful scenes to me was that Thor gave the Swordsman eulogy at his funeral, and it was actually quite poignant. Thor talked about living as a mortal vs. an immortal, and how the Swordsman hard life was culminated in a very heroic death. I thought it was very well done. I loved how Englehart played Thor and Iron Man so well together, but at the same time so well with others, and Captain America too, who weaved in and out of the saga (the same could be said for Black Panther). Englehart mastered the Vision and upon rereading them, I remember why I used to be able to relate to that character so well. Even when things were going right for the Vision, he always had a sense of being an outsider, of thinking he had a limited time before he would ultimately meet a final end. That's a feeling everyone can relate to I think.
Though the first half of the Saga, complete with the four way triangle of Wanda/Vision/Mantis/Swordsman have all the best romantic drama, I find myself really getting into the second half, after the Swordsman's death, specifically when they all decide its do or die time--let's find out Mantis' origin. Mantis was both extremely independent and strong, but at the same time had a vulnerability that is very attractive (a quality I'm sure is attractive on both men and women), and it really comes through here. There's a sense that Iron Man, Thor, Hawkeye and the Vision are her teammates really backing her up with a true sense of camraderie, that they're in it to the end with her no matter what. Its a very underlying loyalty throughout the second halfof the Saga that I feel is more pronounced when viewed as one complete storyline.
And finally, there's Kang. I've read close to every Kang story there is, and he's been done right many times, and many of them are brillant, from his Silver Age tales (brillance) to Avengers Forever (also wonderful). But I think Kang here is perhaps the best the character ever was. He became *thee* Avengers villain and was much a part of the Saga as half of the Avenger's line-up.
I could probably go on and on for more paragraphs, but I'll stop, as its now four weeks after I read them. But I'll tell you this: I've had a bunch of stories floating around in my head for some time. Although those plots were already formulated, I've kind of used the Celestial Madonna Saga's granduer as inspiration that has rekindled my enthusiasm, and in the meantime have written like four LMB short stories and a 49 page (on MS Word) LMB Onevision. I know, its LMB stuff, but that made it fun Not the ideas mind you, just the overall 'feel' to these Avengers issues, the sense that 'I'm reading something truly amazing and ground-breaking here, and when it ends, I'll be blown away--and sad that it had to end!'.
...had to get our reviews all out of order and retread some old ground
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Thank you for your wonderful review, Cobie. I especially liked this observation:
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Though the first half of the Saga, complete with the four way triangle of Wanda/Vision/Mantis/Swordsman have all the best romantic drama, I find myself really getting into the second half, after the Swordsman's death, specifically when they all decide its do or die time--let's find out Mantis' origin. Mantis was both extremely independent and strong, but at the same time had a vulnerability that is very attractive (a quality I'm sure is attractive on both men and women), and it really comes through here. There's a sense that Iron Man, Thor, Hawkeye and the Vision are her teammates really backing her up with a true sense of camraderie, that they're in it to the end with her no matter what. Its a very underlying loyalty throughout the second half of the Saga that I feel is more pronounced when viewed as one complete storyline.
Can't wait to see your reviews of the Stern era.
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: ...had to get our reviews all out of order and retread some old ground
Hyperpath: Email this page to someone!
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