posted
BTW, I recently reread ASM #90 - 149 (ending with the finale of the Jackal/Clone Saga--the first one). Man, I love those issues. Really just love them...and still get choked up after Gwen's death fifteen years after I first read it.
One day I may return to doing some reviews on Spidy's past and give you my surprising analysis of it. For example the Clone Sage...actually pretty damn awesome. Followed by: John Byrne and the Gathering of the Five...the downfall of Spidey (or) how Spidey became confusing like the Legion and X-Men. Finished by...JMS's Spidey...screw the characters and fans, lets shock someone.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
That reference is from the final four part saga that wrapped up the clone saga, IIRC. I can almost see the cover...pumpkins on it to signify halloween, but its actually a clue to the mastermind of the whole thing...the return of Norman Osborn.
The Clone Saga had some confusing moments. But I thought it was engrossing then, and especially now, when you can look at it with the perspective of the entire saga, I think it was brillant. Especially the Death of Aunt May, the growing relationship between Peter and Ben Reilly that felt like two brothers, the revelation of Norman Osborn (who should have come back but then stayed dead again) and sheer awesomeness of no less than four NEW major protagonists for Spidey (Traveler, Scrier, Spidercide, Kaine) and the return of one major one (the Jackal, or hell, even Gaunt).
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: That reference is from the final four part saga that wrapped up the clone saga, IIRC. I can almost see the cover...pumpkins on it to signify halloween, but its actually a clue to the mastermind of the whole thing...the return of Norman Osborn.
It wasn't a trivia question, just a gratuitous "No, really, things WERE better then, no matter what you've heard". Basically agreeing with the sentiment Peter expresses there
PP:SM 75 *still* stinks, even now, though...
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
posted
If 'Boot doesn't mind, I'll repeat some of what I just said to him in a PM about the Clone Saga:
"I agree completely. Not all of it was 100% 'right on', but I'd say almost every single issue from the entire Clone Saga--from Ben's first appearance to his death--had at least some great moments that made each issue worth the purchase.
I remember when it came out I was adamant that Spider-Man was about Peter Parker. And it dawned on me that that concept was partially what the Clone Saga was about (in a way, and among other things). There is just so much that is not just good, but brillant, about the whole thing IMO.
I have to say that there couldn't have been any large plan for each 'part' of the saga to move to the next, like the end of 'part I' being the death of the Jackal, transitioning into Ben finally becoming Spider-Man, all the way to Peter's reintroduction into the series. But it all kind of moves together somewhat effortlessly with almost the perfect amount of time allotted to each segment.
Best of all was the choice of antagonists throughout the entire thing, especially the Jackal (who dies at the perfect time and doesn't come back again), Scrier (who without the revelation would have appeared too over the top, but with it works perfectly), Kaine (whose story is as intriguing as Ben's--though he should not have been brought back) and Gaunt, who I was able to guess early on, but worked well. Even Spidercide was the perfect 'action-oriented villain' for the issues he was in. And though I loathe the use of Norman Osborn from 'the Gathering of the Five' to now, his initial return (that specific storyline at the close of the Saga) was perhaps the only really great way to wrap up the entire series. In an odd way, the last page of the Clone Saga was a night cap for the entire 30+ years before it in that sense, bringing not only the entire thing to a close, but the entire history of the clone saga (which traditionally started with Gwen and Osborne's deaths).
Glad to know you've read the issues and liked them as much as me. My review right here might seem all rosy, but trust me, I know not all of it was perfect. But you're right. There was never a 'No' moment like the way DC has done in recent years (Marvel too)."
PP:SM #75 I believe refers to the last issue (Ben dying via the Goblin). Its not a perfect issue, but its as fitting an end as they could have given. In the months thereafter, they could at least mention Ben in the series and pay him the proper respect. I doubt they'd do that now.
The Clone Saga had an odd balance: (1) on one hand, it was rife with the 'new', in that it had new costumes, scenarios, villains, and other things, many of which are affiliated with the 90's style in which it came out (though I would wager little of the bad). And then (2) it also is a gift to Major Spider-Man fans in that it encompasses storylines from the entire 30+ years up until that time: The Jackal and 'clone' notion itself, the Gwen Clone, Norman Osborn, Robot Master, Aunt May knowing for about 200 issues that Peter is Spider-Man, the involvement of Dr. Octopus, the Black Cat, Daredevil, Vulture and a host of other mainstays characters. It hits on just about every major vibe.
For the Record (1) Aunt May should never have come back. (2) Norman Osborn should have returned for that one, final time. (3) The Alison Mongraine/Baby May subplot could have had story dividends years later if allowed to stay untouched.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Its from an issue coming (somewhat) directly after the Clone Saga came to a conclusion, showing Peter reminiscing about a day he spent with Ben Reilly and how things were just before.
So what 'Boot is implying is that he feels about the same way as Peter does in that above page, most likely because of the recent 'superboy prime punch to Spidey's universe'. Though I like to think all Spidey fans are depressed already because of JMS's entire run (or really from GotF to now).
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I thought JMS started off gangbusters with the Morlun storyline/Aunt May learns Peter's Spider-Man/9-11 tribute, but everything I read afterward was pretty much CRAP--especially what he did with Gwen! Initially JMS's run was supposed to end after those really good issues--I wish they did!
So does that imply that you and 'Boot wish that they'd just kept running with the Ben Reilly Spidey?!?!
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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Note: I never read the whole thing. I dropped out before the launch of Sensational when Ben was shown to be the "real" Peter. Then, I came back for the conclusion that reinstated Peter and brought back Norman.
What I liked
1) Bringing back the clone in the first place Obviously, the clone was given short shrift in the original story, so I was excited to see him brought back.
2) The sense of "moving on" (to an extent) IIRC, they actually killed off Doc Ock during one arc, and later Aunt May, too. (both later reversed)
3) The sense of history. Miles Warren was a great Spidey villain, so it was good to see him again. Also, the Gwen Stacey clone. (Whatever happened to her?)
What I didn't like/hated
1) Why'd they have to make Ben the "real" Peter? Yeah, I know why Marvel did this: Our Peter was married, MJ was expecting and Pete was running low on dramatic and romantic potential (an issue we still face today), so enter the "real" single Peter and let him take over while the other Peter retires. I think fans might have accepted this change better if they'd let Peter retire without making him the clone!!!
2) Peter slapping pregnant Mary Jane when he found out he was the clone. This was the single-most disgusting thing they put in there. UNFORGIVEABLE! He knocked her across the flipping room, for Chrissakes!!! Why doesn't anyone ever talk about this?!?!
3) Bringing back Norman Osborne. Self-explanatory, I think. Should've never happened!
4) A couple of gnawing quibbles: never explaining (to my remembrance) a) how Ben survived his death in the original clone story & b) how Ben and Pete were erroneous in their supposedly exhausting research (as it was shown)which concluded Peter was the clone!
5) Maximum Cloneage? By this time the whole saga had become a self-parody and it underlined the ridiculousness of the whole thing. There just ended up being too many clones running around, man.
6) Cowardice. Y'know, if you're gonna shake up the Spiderverse this majorly, then there shouldn't be a re-set button. In the end this whole saga didn't change jack-squat! yeah, you could say the same with Knightsend and Death of Superman, but at least these stories were obviously planned for their outcomes and didn't drag on forever and ever. But the Clone Saga was obviously planned one way and then turned on its ear another way.
7) And yeah, Aunt May should've stayed dead and so should've Norman Osborn. Two superior stories absolutley ruined!
So definite overall huge thumbs down for the Clone Saga from me! I'll continue to listen to your guys's opinions, though, especially if you can rebut my problems with it.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: I thought JMS started off gangbusters with the Morlun storyline/Aunt May learns Peter's Spider-Man/9-11 tribute, but everything I read afterward was pretty much CRAP--especially what he did with Gwen! Initially JMS's run was supposed to end after those really good issues--I wish they did!
So does that imply that you and 'Boot wish that they'd just kept running with the Ben Reilly Spidey?!?!
I can't speak for Reboot (and indeed, he may want that), but that's not what I want at all.
I think the Clone Saga ended properly, with Peter revealed as the one true 'Peter' (as it should have been) and then a great finale. Am I 100% in love with the return of Norman Osborn? No. But I did think it was highly dramatic. I just wish that was it though--one more time, and then dunzo for good. But I guess it let the cat out of the bag and turned Spidey's villain with the most mystique into a Lex Luther knock-off. Did I want Ben to die? No, again. But I thought it was quite dramatic.
But everyone has to realize something about me, the reader. I've read through all of Spidey's baggage before and never given up on the title. I think I can deal with pretty much anything and except it. For example, whatever is done with Mary Jane I'd be able to accept, including if they kept her as his wife (but I'll be adamant that it was a mistake in the first place--but what's done is done). Probably the one thing I can't accept, the one thing that should be written off as 'never happened' is the JMS/Gwen/Norman Osborn crapfest story from a few years ago. I'd call it the worst Spider-Man story of all time.
So...no, I wouldn't want to go back to Ben Reilly, definatley. If you reread this entire thread Lardy you'll get a sense of how I feel about Spidey. I liked the initial two years after the Clone Saga ended and thought each of the four books had their own voice and some good stories. And it was time for the Clone Saga to be done with completely and for the Spider-Man mythos to move on.
But what I hate is just about everything from John Byrne's 'Gathering of the Five', which served basically as a Reboot (bringing back Aunt May, etc.) and the run thereafter to now. You're right, JMS's run started with a bang and I was into it. But it quickly spiraled into one of the most poorly written runs ever in Spider-Man.
JMS's crimes include: (1) Almost no supporting cast at all, (2) a series of mystical villains after another, (3) sure some great Aunt May scenes, but we saw this already years earlier, (4) issue upon issue with little action, (5) the entire Gwen/Norman children debacle, (6) the Civil War issues, which were equally as awful, including JMS portrayal of Tony Stark, Reed Richards and Peter himself. I pretty hate this run and rank down there with Byrne's.
I loved the Clone Saga but admit right out that it was flawed. Its certainly not in my top five best Spider-Man sagas of all time, but its far superior to everything we've had since. But again, I don't want to go back to it, and I don't want to go back to Ben. I'm a fan of Peter Parker above all.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: What I didn't like/hated 1) Why'd they have to make Ben the "real" Peter? Yeah, I know why Marvel did this: Our Peter was married, MJ was expecting and Pete was running low on dramatic and romantic potential (an issue we still face today), so enter the "real" single Peter and let him take over while the other Peter retires. I think fans might have accepted this change better if they'd let Peter retire without making him the clone!!!
2) Peter slapping pregnant Mary Jane when he found out he was the clone. This was the single-most disgusting thing they put in there. UNFORGIVEABLE! He knocked her across the flipping room, for Chrissakes!!! Why doesn't anyone ever talk about this?!?!
3) Bringing back Norman Osborne. Self-explanatory, I think. Should've never happened!
4) A couple of gnawing quibbles: never explaining (to my remembrance) a) how Ben survived his death in the original clone story & b) how Ben and Pete were erroneous in their supposedly exhausting research (as it was shown)which concluded Peter was the clone!
5) Maximum Cloneage? By this time the whole saga had become a self-parody and it underlined the ridiculousness of the whole thing. There just ended up being too many clones running around, man.
6) Cowardice. Y'know, if you're gonna shake up the Spiderverse this majorly, then there shouldn't be a re-set button. In the end this whole saga didn't change jack-squat! yeah, you could say the same with Knightsend and Death of Superman, but at least these stories were obviously planned for their outcomes and didn't drag on forever and ever. But the Clone Saga was obviously planned one way and then turned on its ear another way.
7) And yeah, Aunt May should've stayed dead and so should've Norman Osborn. Two superior stories absolutley ruined!
(1) Well, it was eventually revealed that it wasn't the case. I'm sure at the time they thought Ben would or could be the real Peter, but I knew even then that it would never stick. It goes along with Grant Morrison's theory that the characters themselves are 'living entities'. Of course Ben wouldn't be the 'real Peter'. But I do remember reading letters of outrage at the time. I guess its a matter of opinion.
(6) (I'll skip ahead) - y'see, I disagree with you here. There was some lasting change in the series, but just because they went back to Peter from Ben doesn't imply cowardice. It just means that the entire mythos & story have progressed once again. Ben was Spider-Man for quite a long time. Each transition brought in new writers and artists and editors as well, and in an odd way, you can view it in hindsight as one 'segment' moving to the next. So the return of Peter was yet another progression farther along the road in that sense. But at the end of the day, I thought they were able to wrap things up within the story in a way that made sense, so I'm not concerned with any editorial dictates to 'shake up the Spider-verse'.
(2) the slap - yeah, I agree, that was over the top and bad writing. Taking it down a notch could have played up Peter's desperation better. But there was an implication that he was suddenly going the way of 'Spidercide' when that happened. I'd have to reread the issue.
(3) I've struggled wit this one for awhile as you can see above. I'd prefer he never be brought back at all. But I'm willing to accept his return in the finale because of my above reasons (and in a literary way, it kind of brings things full circle as the Clone Saga truly began the day Norman and Gwen first died). I just wish he hadn't stuck around as a continuing villain. I really think its undermined his role in spider-history from a larger perspective.
(4) They eventually explain how Ben survived, and its implied that Seward Trainer is the one who influenced things to make it look like Ben was the 'real' Peter (you probably didn't read those issues).
(5) Maximum Clonage - c'mon, that's a little funny! I think the fan outrage being what it was and the change in editors, writers, etc. had left this stigma on the entire 'clone saga' as being a never-ending problem. I find it funny that they poked fun at this. Its more to do with 'Maximum Carnage' the video game being so popular then, than the actual 14 part Maximum Carnage story itself from a few years earlier.
(7) agree, but Aunt May coming back was John Byrne's fault years later and not a part of the Clone Saga. There was at least a two year transition period where Aunt May was still dead and Peter & his cast had moved on with their lives.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: 1) Well, it was eventually revealed that it wasn't the case. I'm sure at the time they thought Ben would or could be the real Peter, but I knew even then that it would never stick. It goes along with Grant Morrison's theory that the characters themselves are 'living entities'. Of course Ben wouldn't be the 'real Peter'. But I do remember reading letters of outrage at the time. I guess its a matter of opinion.
I feel seeing how the original editorial direction was going that Marvel meant for this to stick--I mean they launched Sensational starring Ben! Tell me that didn't demonstrate intent to make Ben the permanent spidey!
quote:(6) (I'll skip ahead) - y'see, I disagree with you here. There was some lasting change in the series, but just because they went back to Peter from Ben doesn't imply cowardice. It just means that the entire mythos & story have progressed once again. Ben was Spider-Man for quite a long time. Each transition brought in new writers and artists and editors as well, and in an odd way, you can view it in hindsight as one 'segment' moving to the next. So the return of Peter was yet another progression farther along the road in that sense. But at the end of the day, I thought they were able to wrap things up within the story in a way that made sense, so I'm not concerned with any editorial dictates to 'shake up the Spider-verse'.
But how much effect has Ben's story had in the long haul? When was the last time he was even mentioned? That whole storyline is treated as a taboo better left forgotten. So therefore its longterm impact has been negated...with the lone exception that Norman is still around. In the end the storyline and Ben Reilly were throwaway concepts judging by its impact on current stories, or lack thereof.
quote:(2) the slap - yeah, I agree, that was over the top and bad writing. Taking it down a notch could have played up Peter's desperation better. But there was an implication that he was suddenly going the way of 'Spidercide' when that happened. I'd have to reread the issue.
Go ahead...reread it. I'd put it as probably my number one travesty in all of comics...and that's saying something! And no one ever talks about it! Why?!?!
quote:(3) I've struggled wit this one for awhile as you can see above. I'd prefer he never be brought back at all. But I'm willing to accept his return in the finale because of my above reasons (and in a literary way, it kind of brings things full circle as the Clone Saga truly began the day Norman and Gwen first died). I just wish he hadn't stuck around as a continuing villain. I really think its undermined his role in spider-history from a larger perspective.
Ya think? No one ever seems to stay dead in comics anymore...and Norman's return really opened Pandora's box. Worse, I haven't read a single Norman story since he returned that was good enough to justify it, unlike, say, the Winter Soldier over in Cap. IMO, the two characters that should have stayed dead above all others: Osborne and Jean Grey.
quote:(4) They eventually explain how Ben survived, and its implied that Seward Trainer is the one who influenced things to make it look like Ben was the 'real' Peter (you probably didn't read those issues).
Nice to know they explained those things. Ben's survival, in particular, should've been explained right away. I'm sure it wasn't a diffiult explanation, but holding off made it seem this secret was vitally important. So what was it?
As for the other explanation, well, it was presented to be true with absolute certainty, so this was just a ret-con to return to the status-quo...I'm sure it wasn't planned all along.
quote:(5) Maximum Clonage - c'mon, that's a little funny! I think the fan outrage being what it was and the change in editors, writers, etc. had left this stigma on the entire 'clone saga' as being a never-ending problem. I find it funny that they poked fun at this. Its more to do with 'Maximum Carnage' the video game being so popular then, than the actual 14 part Maximum Carnage story itself from a few years earlier.
Yeah, it is funny. But it works because the story itself had become a joke anyway.
quote:(7) agree, but Aunt May coming back was John Byrne's fault years later and not a part of the Clone Saga. There was at least a two year transition period where Aunt May was still dead and Peter & his cast had moved on with their lives.
Was the transition period really that long? I must be mistaken because I thought Byrne actually wrote (or co-wrote) that 4-parter that restored Peter/killed Ben/brought back Osborne. Am I wrong?
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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I believe Byrne's involvement didn't come until at least two years later or so. There were a *lot* of stories in between. Then again, it was four comics a month, so maybe I'm misjudging it (you know I'm too lazy to check).
I honestly never believed for one second that Ben would stay Spider-Man. I don't think most people did. It just wasn't going to happen. So given the length of time he was, its pretty impressive how long it lasted. I bet you that for ever person at Marvel intending for it to stick there was someone else also at Marvel planning on how Peter could come back.
When viewing it as a whole, many years after the fact, its essentially a story about how Spider-Man is about 'Peter Parker'. Its also about how Peter and Ben are 'Peter Parker' at different times. And honestly, it *had* to end with Peter becoming Spider-Man again, strictly from a literary standpoint IMO. Peter's story within it (not Ben's) is somewhat similar to ASM #16-18 and #50-52. Both those stories have completely different reasons for Peter to give up being Spidey, but hit on the same larger beats.
But I agree completely about one thing...the fact that its hardly mentioned anymore bothers me too. It used to be mentioned all the time but has not been once since Joe Q took over Marvel. I'm certain its an editorial edict. Of course there are other things in Spider-history never referred to either anymore (for many years now), so the clone saga is not alone in that respect.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Actually, in a way its like Roy Thomas' mega-Celestial Saga in Thor that culminated in Thor #300 (I'd wager late 70's-early 80's). It was a great, great run on Thor that lasted year and years (I'd say at least four years!), with a spectular ending that hit on decades old beats and mysteries while taking Thor into a new direction.
Within two years it was never mentioned again. Still...it happened and it was awesome.
EDIT: Are you a big Spidey fan Lardy? I wasn't kidding...check out past pages of this thread for reviews of tons of Spidey's history! I left off somewhere in the late 80's/early 90's and one day will have to catch up on my reviews. Cut me a little slack though...many of those posts were written when I first came here and sometimes a little repetitive and filled with spelling errors. Things I would never do now
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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