posted
Cobie...you're telling me that you're good with what Spidey did at the end of the Kraven story?
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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Joe Kelly went to great pains to showcase that Peter will not kill his enemies, which seperates him from Kraven, and also Kaine.
(I've read about 10 Spider-Man comics in 2 days...coupled with a stressful workplace and baby...so forgive me, I think my legendary memory might be fading on the short term )
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: (I all the over-complicating of people becoming the second or third of some costumed identity, or even worse, switching for no reason, the “Fabian Nicieza Syndrome” ).
I thought Fabian Niceza syndrome was, as Paul O'Brien once put it:
quote:At this point, one of Nicieza's recurrent writing flaws rears its head again - his inexplicable love of overly complicated macguffins which seem like the result of a bastard collaboration between Jack Kirby and Heath Robinson. It sometimes seems like a Fabian Nicieza character will never simply pop down to the shops to buy some milk when he could use a subcutaneal nanoimplant to send arcanopsychic signals to a hidden icon in a supermarket fridge which will open a bacterial portal through which milk will be telekinetically relocated in hard-light form to a pocket holding dimension located in an occipital interstitiality whence it may be drawn down with the use of an experimental computer program held on three separate computer discs located in Bangkok, St Petersberg and the Sea of Tranquility.
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
quote:Originally posted by Cobaltus: Which part do you mean, Dev?
Joe Kelly went to great pains to showcase that Peter will not kill his enemies, which seperates him from Kraven, and also Kaine.
(I've read about 10 Spider-Man comics in 2 days...coupled with a stressful workplace and baby...so forgive me, I think my legendary memory might be fading on the short term )
Just in case...
Click Here For A SpoilerThe part where he rips off part of the one characters face. Not exactly something that any Spider Man I know of would do. Sorry, it's just not the Peter Parker that I used to read about.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I think "eugh" is a reasonable response to that. I agree that inflicting a Mark of Kaine-type injury is ridiculously out-of-character for any Spider-Man I'd care to read.
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
posted
As for that scene--and this is actually a different kind of criticism--it's pretty hard to figure out what the hell exactly happened. It almost seemed like Peter inflicted the mark of Kaine, which he clearly doesn't have the ability to do. (It fits into the larger theme of what Kelly was going for in terms of the Kaine/Peter conflict with the Kravinoffs and similarities & differences, etc.).
He doesn't really 'rip her face off', but honestly, I don't know what he does. Afterwards you can see her face and it's clearly all there, but with a huge hand-shaped bruise over it (whether its a bruise or flesh, who knows). What Joe Kelly was going for was similar to what PAD did in the Death of Jean DeWolfe story where Peter beats Sin-Eater senseless. Peter had just watched Kaine impaled, Mattie Franklin sacrificed on an altar and other atrocities--he was on the verge of losing it but ultimately pulls back before he kills someone. Was it effective? That's for each person to decide. I certainly don't think it was anywhere near as good as the Sin-Eater scene. I didn't find it at all that out there given the story being told and I didn't think it was completely out of character either. I thought it was very much in character and certainly not on par, travesty wise, as actually bringing Kraven back from the dead. (That's my personal opinion though; you both say it's not a Spider-Man you care to read and I understand that).
The whole sequence could have been better if it was more clear in exactly what happened. That is probably Joe Kelly's biggest flaw as a story-teller sometimes, like Giffen's.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Yeah, but you need to see the rest of the issue to see how she's fine in two pages with a weird bruise. It's pretty confusing stuff. The only way Peter could tear off someone's flesh like that would rip her whole face off, it wouldn't have the finger marks.
I'm not saying it isn't him doing that, I was just confused by the whole sequence.
And actually, the story was good enough where I didn't dwell on it. Grim Hunt was actually quite good, unlike the current story, OMIT.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobaltus: As for that scene--and this is actually a different kind of criticism--it's pretty hard to figure out what the hell exactly happened. It almost seemed like Peter inflicted the mark of Kaine, which he clearly doesn't have the ability to do.
Actually, there's no particular reason why he couldn't - the "Mark of Kaine" was always just Kaine's clinging power burning the degeneration scars on his hand into someone's face. [In the same way, his precog visions were his spider-sense dialled up to 11]
Based on the page posted though, I agree with Dev - that is DEFINITELY presented as face-tearing, not burning.
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
posted
Either I had forgotten (likely) or never knew in the first place (possible) that this was how Kaine's powers worked, but either way, that's pretty cool! It makes perfect sense too. It also explains how Kaine could give the Mark of Kaine to things like wood.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: As a long time major Spider-Man fan, it would seem like a no-brainer for me to pick up The Black Cat miniseries (four issue) which has recently come out, but I have to admit that I wasn’t immediately on board. These days I’m just more judicious in anything Marvel and DC put out that isn’t specifically one of those characters I’m 100% committed to.
Still, what sold me at first was I thought Amanda Conner was on art; I was wrong, however, but she did do the cover, which is simply gorgeous, with perhaps the best looking Black Cat I’ve ever seen EVER and a cool logo design very reminiscent of 1960’s cinema (which I bet was encouraged by writer Jen Van Meter given her inside script, which I’ll get to shortly). The actual interior artist, however, was Javier Pulido, which is even better for me, as I consider him currently one of my favorite artists currently working in comics. In Lardy’s Roundtable thread I listed him as one of the artists I would buy a comic book specifically for his work and I meant it; his recent Spider-Man and Marvel Zombies artwork is some of the best I’ve ever seen and I even mentioned my familiarity with him stemming from his Human Target days how good I think he’s gotten before on Legion World.
So I did buy the comic and I’m thrilled that I did. I liked it so much that rather than post about it in the Spider-Man thread where it might fit, I figured it deserved a post here in the “Any Recommendations?” thread. I’ve always considered the Black Cat one of my favorites, though I believe that (A) she works best as a supporting player for Spider-Man (like the Punisher) but with the caveat (B) she works best when she’s not a love interest for Spider-Man; I think she deserves to stand out on her own more than that. She’s one of the truly great Spider-characters after the end of the Silver Age. And here, in her mini, I think she gets the best treatment she’s gotten perhaps ever, or at least certainly since the early 80’s when she co-starred with Spidey in Spectacular Spider-Man.
She’s presented here as a strong lead that is intelligent, brave and above all, having fun. There’s a quirkiness to her that makes her more than just ‘attractive thief’ since fiction is littered with those. And she stands apart from Catwoman in more than just physical appearance, which is absolutely necessary in any Black Cat appearance.
But getting back to the art for a minute, which I feel is good enough to justify anyone to buy it. Pulido fits into the category I’ve been for several months calling the more ‘cartoonish style’ that Darwyn Cooke and Tim Sale have helped re-popularize as comics move away from manga. Just yesterday Lardy called it more of a Batman: the Animated Series inspired style and I think he really nailed it on the head; whatever you want to call it, I’m a big fan of it, from Mike Avon Oeming’s very sharp, quirky style to Darwyn Cooke’s masterful style and now to my two new favorite artists (both Spider-Man artists): Marcos Martin and Javier Pulido.
Pulido stands apart from the rest due to several things. First, he has a very quirky, Steve Ditko-esque style that both ‘odd’ and also funny at times. It’s obviously intentional and I like it. When the Black Cat is talking to some of her fences about ‘Russians’, she’s also landing from the ceiling and the way Pulido draws her doing it makes it look like she’s doing a Russian dance. Subtle yet hilarious. Secondly, he has a very stylized composition and way of pacing the comic like Cooke does but in a completely different way. There is a big 1960’s cinema influence. The entire ‘other burgler’ breaking into the museum sequence is very referential to the movie “To Catch a Thief”, which is a very stylized Hitchcock movie (I just watched last year). Pulido also draws a very sexy Black Cat, as well as other attractive characters, which is very pleasant on the eyes. The sequence where the Black Cat and Spider-Man are dressing post-coitus is a brief yet incredibly sexy shot that leaves most of it to the imagination. But like Steve Ditko used to do, he liters his comics with very normal looking people which many artists fail to do.
Best of all is the little things Pulido does which shows that gives the reader little easer eggs. The hotel the Black Cat meets Spider-Man at is the “Pollard Hotel” and its sign along the side is the same exact way former Spider-Man (and other things, notably Thor) artist Keith Pollard used to sign his artwork. A nice tribute. The Black Cat is in stocking later on and rather than sheer or fishnet, they are spider-webbed. You can just tell Pulido puts a tremendous amount of thought into every panel which is also reminiscent of Cooke.
Getting more towards the script itself, I think Jen Van Meter did a terrific job. I admit I don’t really recognize her name, just having seen it before in passing and thinking her name made her sound really hot (as some names do ). What is noticeable right away is she is really good at snappy dialogue that is witty, charming and advances the plot. As I say time and time again in the Spider-Man thread, when people try to force Spidey to be funny it just comes across as lame (I’m looking at you Dan Slott) but when its seemless its just brilliant (take a bow, Joe Kelly). Here, Van Meter falls into the latter and even though Spidey is only in it briefly, he has a great line I’m surprised no one ever said before after Black Cat’s luck powers accidentally make him trip: “ouch, you’re the only woman I’ve ever fallen for” (and Van Meter realizing its so obvious even has the Black Cat mention how she bets he’s held his tongue for that one). Van Meter also introduces several very likeable Black Cat supporting characters, which is something she’s always needed.
Van Meter also does a great job with giving us this story, which just works for me. It starts as a thief vs. thief story but by issue’s end we see there is a much bigger story at work tying into the mythos of Kraven the Hunter and the Chameleon and their families, which is a mythos I’m fascinated by and have always loved. She seamlessly ties it all into Russian history and the history of the black market and I’m anxious to read more about it.
All in all, this was a fantastic first issue and I can’t wait for the rest and already want to read more miniseries like this or at least have Van Meter join the Spider-Man writing team and rejoin with Pulido for it.
I recommend this comic to anyone looking for a great artist, a great ‘smaller story’, a strong yet interesting female lead and anyone who loves the later Hitchcock films. Great stuff.
Read the second issue and it's just as good as the first! This is really great stuff--one of the best series that's come out all summer! The art is simply to die for, and the writing is terrific!
This is probably the best "thief" story I've read in the last decade. As good as Bru & Cooke on Catwoman for sure with more crammed into each issue.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Remember what i wrote the other day about Thor and Captain America? Well, here's another one... only I didn't write this. Every so often, somebody at the GCD actually cares about what they're doing (but it's never the editors)...
ASM #289 / Jun'87
Story continues from Spider-Man vs. Wolverine (Marvel, 1987 series) #1; O.K. so this issue reveals that that Hobgoblin was Ned Leeds--sort of; After four years of hints, clues and red herrings, somebody had to be under the yellow Goblin mask; Original Hobgoblin creator Roger Stern left the comic without telling anyone his ideas on the true identity of the villain; Tom DeFalco who wrote many of the issues leading up to this revelation had an alleged falling out with editor Jim Owsley and quit the book without providing the identity of who he intended to be Hobgoblin; According to Peter David, he was told to write this unmasking story and Owsley intended for the secret identity of the Hobgoblin to be the Foreigner; This made no sense to David and they tried to hash out who actually COULD be the villain; Ned Leeds became the only viable suspect (and was a fan favorite for the role) but Owsley had already written the Spider-Man Vs. Wolverine one-shot in which Leeds was killed; It was up to Peter David to paint Ned as the culprit posthumously; Fast forward ten years to 1997 which saw original Hobgoblin scribe Roger Stern returning to the character in the Hobgoblin Lives limited series; In this story, he does a little creative rewriting of history (we fan boys call it retroactive continuity) and he reveals that Ned Leeds was simply a brainwashed dupe of the REAL Hobgoblin, narcissistic fashion designer Roderick Kingsley; Ironically, Kingsley is the only person according to the original stories who could NOT have been the Hobgoblin as he was seen on two occasions to be working with the villain and talking to him without his mask; Stern introduced a secret twin brother, Daniel, in Hobgoblin Lives who impersonated Roderick at key moments and made the Kingsly-as-Hobgoblin theory at least mildly plausible; This is Marvel's official version of the Hobgoblin controversy and the convoluted appearance list issue by issue can be seen under the Hobgoblin character profile on Marvel's official site here: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix5/hobgoblinkingsley.htm; Peter David discusses the story for this issue and the Leeds/Hobgoblin decision here: http://www.peterdavid.net/archives/002234.html.
Registered: Aug 2003
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Among other things, I wound up copying the entire cityscape to a separate layer, so I could completely remove ALL color from it-- now it's "pure" gray!
This must have been a pretty simple coloring job for Stan Goldberg. The only complex part-- which has never QUITE been duplicated in reprints-- is the coloring on The Vulture's costume. HOW did he do that? No airbrush, real or in Photoshop. He still boggles my mind, even with something simple like this.
If you go to the site, you'll also see I finally modified the background on the Ditko cover pages. I still maintained the ASM logo, but as I did with the Romita and Kane runs, I changed the color-- in this case, to more closely match the color on the thumbnails pages. I think it's a big improvement, because that beige was just driving me crazy.
I've also begun to add "compare" pages-- and I've maintained the cover page design for the backgrounds of those!
So far, I've managed to feature (almost) EVERY reprint. I decided to include variations of the original cover as "medium" images-- with multiple side-by-side displays (only ONE "compare" page PER book!!), but any books where the cover is completely different, only included as thumbnails. (Nick Simon suggested this over a year ago, and I figured out how it would really work well.)
And then just tonight, checking the GCD, I was reminded that there's 2 entire runs of reprints I didn't even include on the first 2 Spidey comics, but I have 'em set up for ASM #2. these are the SPIDER-MAN CLASSICS (already set up at the site-- and I forgot about 'em!) and, SPIDER-MAN COLLECTIBLE SERIES. My old friend from work, Bill Batcheller, had told me about these-- they were free giveaways inlcuded with certain newspapers-- but I never saw them until tonight. I downloaded all 24 covers from the GCD, but have to do slight clean-ups before I can post them. (And I have to set up another thumbnails page for them... sheesh.)
Each COLLECTIBLE issue reprints half of an issue of ASM. Every other cover is a reprint of an original, the other ones are NEW. This includes a new cover for "The Tinkerer"!
I'd been thinking of doing some more Ditko covers for weeks now. At the moment, too many of them are small, dark & fuzzy! This particular one I was inspired to do now because I'd already set up a so-far UNIQUE "compare" page, where I compared 2 covers featuring different villains with the SAME name-- in this case, "Vulture". The OTHER one was by Dick Ayers. Only when I set up the compare page did I do a double-take-- as there was just TOO MUCH similar between the 2 covers. I wondered-- can this be a coincidence??
Upgrading the SUSPENSE section was tedium. THIS bit was FUN, though!
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
The upgrade looks incredible! That's a classic example of how skilled Ditko was as a cover artist. As I've said numerous times, he remains the greatest of all Spider-Man artists in my mind.
I had no idea about the other two reprint runs. Interesting they were giveaways with newspapers. I'm fascinated to see what the covers look like! Whenever I see a Marvel Tales cover that is different from ASM, it's a cool feeling--like an issue of Spider-Man I never knew about.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Hyperpath: Email this page to someone!
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