posted
"finally returned to greatness by Stern in the mid 90's"
I'd QUIT buying all Marvels entirely by then. THAT mini-series was what got me to give Marvel another look. Eventually, I regretted doing so, but, that mini remains a good thing.
And yet, I've seen comments online from fans who think that mini was uncalled-for and terribly misguided. Sheesh.
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I was surprised when my large pile of Spider-Man comics only had one recent issue of Spidey, and remembered the series is now bi-weekly instead of thrice-monthly. As of yet that has no effect on my enjoyment of the series but we’ll see how that goes (whether good or bad).
Again, I’m conflicted on the entire thing: on the one hand, this is definitely the best writing Slott has done sine She-Hulk, and perhaps ever, for Marvel. He’s firing on all cylinders, and nailing all the facets of what makes Spider-Man good: large supporting cast, lots of subplots, action & adventure every issue, some humor but not over the top, personal drama, etc. And yet, I can’t get over the fact that the real Hobgoblin has been killed and replaced by Phil Urich of all people. It’s too much for me to give even the best story a pass.
Yet, I am still hopeful that perhaps I’m jumping the gun. Knowing Slott likes to play the bait & switch game, which he did over and over in She-Hulk and elsewhere, I wouldn’t be surprised if this was Kingsley after all. Or something along those lines. As juvenile as it sounds, that would actually assuage all my anger.
I’m glad to see Smythe reappear here, a character with a long Spidey history. I’m not sure I like the idea of Smythe being a strait-up super-villain (if that is the case), but I realize they were already heading this way in the 90’s and basically ever since the son was introduced after Spencer died in the 80’s. His appearance also serves to create an in-story reason for the Scorpion to be the Scorpion again instead of Venom, and I appreciate Slott’s knowledge of Spidey’s history to make it plausible.
The new spider-costume was entirely unnecessary and I found it boring.
I’ve also decided now that Peter is ‘with’ Carlie Cooper that I’m anxious to see a new love interest in his life. I’m fickle like that. Carlie ain’t no MJ and ain’t no Gwen; she’s more of a transition girlfriend in my eyes, like Deb Whitman.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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It was one of several reasons I was very annoyed with PAD on that run.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Way back, it was like a toss-up for me who was more annoying-- Deborah or Marcy. Of course, Marcy was like "Libby" on SABRINA, so I guess it was really no contest. He shouldn't have been involved in any way with either of them, though.
Registered: Aug 2003
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It was one of several reasons I was very annoyed with PAD on that run.
Well....?
My laptop has a virus and pc is in the babys room so I'm posting from my phone--will give you a real reply from work.
That's why I've been largely absent at nights this month!
I remember posting about here in this thread before though (I think?)...will have to check!
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I think this was as far as you ever got with Deb and FNSM:
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Yeah, PAD had to deal with Peter having a new secret ID as a teacher after he'd been outed, and then he brought back Deb Whitman in a way I really disliked, and even used Flash in a way I found pretty distasteful too. Probably he had to try to make lemonade out of some serious lemons, but all it did was turn me off more.
And just what IS the PC doing in the baby's room, anyway? Are ya THAT cramped for space in the condo? And don't bother explaining how the laptop got the virus....we know.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Chief Lardy: I think this was as far as you ever got with Deb and FNSM:
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Yeah, PAD had to deal with Peter having a new secret ID as a teacher after he'd been outed, and then he brought back Deb Whitman in a way I really disliked, and even used Flash in a way I found pretty distasteful too. Probably he had to try to make lemonade out of some serious lemons, but all it did was turn me off more.
And just what IS the PC doing in the baby's room, anyway? Are ya THAT cramped for space in the condo? And don't bother explaining how the laptop got the virus....we know.
It *is* that tight! With the baby having his own room now, we are really pressed for space, even though we’re considering moving the desk / PC to our room. We’re actually repainting the entire condo right now and then moving on to some new jobs (new floors thanks to Pickles ‘tear up the rug’ puppy phase). Our goal is to have it ready to sell by year end and then buy a house! We’re excited but realize it’s a lot of work (plus, this time we’ll be selling *and* buying instead of just buying).
Meanwhile, back to PAD’s FNSM run, which you’ll recall jaded me enough where in a way it bumped PAD out of my mind as a quintessential Spider-Man writer. You correctly pointed out that he was under a lot of editorial pressure focusing him towards certain types of stories he probably didn’t want to do. Some things, however, were pretty annoying nonetheless and entirely PAD, since I know his writing style pretty well.
One of them was Deb Whitman. Now she’s not my favorite character (in fact, probably my single least favorite girlfriend of Peter’s), but I love Spidey’s past and don’t like when characters are written entirely wrong, which she was here. Basically, during this time Peter was revealed as Spider-Man in Civil War. Deb then wrote a tell-all book about her relationship with Peter years earlier. It’s a very ‘in the now’ type story, which PAD loves doing, but it’s totally out of character for Deb. Deb was a bit crazy (and a lot wasn’t her fault since she thought she was crazy because she thought Pete was Spidey and Pete made her think that was a crazy idea), but she was always a good person. She was not the type of person who would do that. The plotline—and PAD’s actual scenes where he wrote Deb—were bad enough for me to take a step back and realize that many of PAD’s detractors, who claim PAD is willing to ignore decades of characterization to shoehorn characters into his “hot topic of the moment” maybe aren’t all that wrong. I never read Richtor and Shatterstar before his current X-Factor, so I have no idea about whether they are gay is against their prior characterization, but I can’t help but feel those who claim that may be correct; and that is because of Evidence A: Deb Whitman.
Also, he totally got Flash Thompson all wrong, which he should have known better. Flash has been written poorly but many writers over the decades, who ignore how he matured (in the freaking 70’s, so c’mon); PAD knows this but wrote him overly jerkish anyway. He basically turned Peter & Flash into opposing high school teachers (gym versus science), as if it was a sitcom on television. I thought it was pretty bad.
But I don’t want to bash PAD entirely—you know full well I love a lot of his work and realize not every writer gets it right every time.
Deb Whitman, like Marcy, come from a brief era in Spider-Man history that is interesting to me because it kind of had Peter off in another direction for awhile (his Grad School phase). Since I never read those stories when they came out, being either not born or 2 years old, by the time I read them, I knew full well Deb’s period as Peter’s girlfriend was brief, so that made it even better—I could be interested in her, but not get disheartened by the fact that she was very wrong for Pete. Still though, I HATE when a character like that is brought back and shoehorned into whatever plotline causes the lead character grief.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
"Also, he totally got Flash Thompson all wrong, which he should have known better. Flash has been written poorly but many writers over the decades, who ignore how he matured (in the freaking 70’s, so c’mon); PAD knows this but wrote him overly jerkish anyway. He basically turned Peter & Flash into opposing high school teachers (gym versus science), as if it was a sitcom on television. I thought it was pretty bad."
I get VERY mixed vibes about Flash. He started to mature by the time he left college for the army. (Did that actually make sense? If you're in college, didn't that let you out of the draft?) After, he seemed to mature more, then more still during the Conway-Andru period. But I've heard such HORRIFIC things about stories with him done decades later. And of course, when I read Ditko's run, my feeling is-- "NO WAY is this SCUM ever gonna grow up into anything else." So I see at least 3 completely contradictory depictions of him! Romita's seems okay, UNTIL you go back and re-read Ditko, then you realize... "WTF?????" It's like a soap-opera that recast an actor. Or something.
The high school sitcom scenario sounds scary.
"Deb Whitman, like Marcy, come from a brief era in Spider-Man history that is interesting to me because it kind of had Peter off in another direction for awhile (his Grad School phase). Since I never read those stories when they came out, being either not born or 2 years old, by the time I read them, I knew full well Deb’s period as Peter’s girlfriend was brief, so that made it even better—I could be interested in her, but not get disheartened by the fact that she was very wrong for Pete. Still though, I HATE when a character like that is brought back and shoehorned into whatever plotline causes the lead character grief."
I did read those when they came out (Bill Mantlo SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, wasn't it?). My feeling was always, dull, nervous, not very outgoing... MIGHT have been okay for the original, high school Peter, but not the way he's been since. MIGHT have been okay as a casual friend, but not someone to get "SERIOUS" about. And somehow, it seemed to get "serious". And then, it got DEMENTED. I didn't care for her going off the deep end suspecting things about him, but his LYING all the time and continuing to do so made it worse. (Please keep in mind, I haven't read these since they came out, I'm going on memories from 35 years ago!) The "resolution" seemed a dirty trick, even though it worked out for the best. It didn't make Pete look all that good in my eyes.
What you're describing about a "tell-all" book sounds like it could only have happened if she had a COMPLETE change in personality, or if someone else talked her into it, and she did it under duress, questioning the whole time, "Is this right? Should I be doing this?"
I suppose the problem is, with any corporate-owned characters, they're gonna go on and on and ON, and the longer they go on, the more chance they're gonna go WRONG. And every time something goes "wrong", it's permanently part of the ongoing history, which only makes it worse... unless someone pulls a "Twilight Zone" time-altering type story to change history, and THAT usually just makes things EVEN WORSE! (Gee, anybody know any of those lately?)
Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: And yet, I can’t get over the fact that the real Hobgoblin has been killed and replaced by Phil Urich of all people. It’s too much for me to give even the best story a pass.
Loathe as I am to even appear to defend Slott (let alone the idea of Evil Phil Urich), what exactly makes Roderick Kingsley "the real Hobgoblin"? Bearing in mind that (a) more than half the original appearances of Hobgoblin I were written with the intention of it being Richard Fisk, (b) in no part of the Stern-written appearances was Kingsley even HINTED at being the Hobgoblin - indeed, it was actively contradicted, with Stern's ultimate "solution" involving a never-ever-mentioned identical twin; (c) Hobby I was ultimately revealed to be Ned Leeds and (d) even in the retconned version, most of the appearances are Leeds, what about RODERICK KINGSLEY as a character makes him a great Hobgoblin?
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Meanwhile, back to PAD’s FNSM run, which you’ll recall jaded me enough where in a way it bumped PAD out of my mind as a quintessential Spider-Man writer. You correctly pointed out that he was under a lot of editorial pressure focusing him towards certain types of stories he probably didn’t want to do. Some things, however, were pretty annoying nonetheless and entirely PAD, since I know his writing style pretty well.
One of them was Deb Whitman. Now she’s not my favorite character (in fact, probably my single least favorite girlfriend of Peter’s), but I love Spidey’s past and don’t like when characters are written entirely wrong, which she was here. Basically, during this time Peter was revealed as Spider-Man in Civil War. Deb then wrote a tell-all book about her relationship with Peter years earlier. It’s a very ‘in the now’ type story, which PAD loves doing, but it’s totally out of character for Deb. Deb was a bit crazy (and a lot wasn’t her fault since she thought she was crazy because she thought Pete was Spidey and Pete made her think that was a crazy idea), but she was always a good person. She was not the type of person who would do that.
Remember though, that she was written as near-bankruptcy from healthcare costs (I think for her mum), and utterly desperate for cash.
[And that the last time Peter saw her was him convincing her she was literally off-her-rocker as part of a rather selfish plot to convince her that Spider-Man wasn't Peter Parker. Followed, ultimately, by Spider-Man taking his mask off in public to reveal he was... Peter Parker]
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
posted
Well, what I really mean is "Hobgoblin I", whether it was Kingsley or Ned. I actually enjoyed the Kingsley revelation quite a bit in the Hobgoblin Lives miniseries, though I would have enjoyed Richard Fisk as well if he hadn't been revealed as the Rose.
But essentially, I don't like the idea of the original Hobgoblin dying. Having thought about your post some more, I think I see him as the Hobgoblin first and then whoever he really is second.
Does that make any sense? Even typing this I'm having a hard time saying what I mean.
As for PAD/Deb, I had forgotten that was her motivation. I'm glad she at least had a motive.(Still don't like the usage of character and actual delivery of the plotline but I'm glad there was some backing to it all).
PS - any post where Reboot must relunctantly plays devil's advocate for Dan Slott makes my day.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I keep forgetting... WHY did Roger Stern leave the book when he did, BEFORE revealing Hobgoblin's identity? His leaving just then caused more troubles than I can count.
Registered: Aug 2003
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