posted
Blast-- I'm such a perfectionist-- late last night I got back to work on that ASM #2 restoration. I really screwed up the LOGO area early-on, because I was in a hurry. It's slowly getting better now. (At the moment, the entire cover looks SHARP, except for the top area, which is slighlty out-of-focus.)
SPIDER-MAN CLASSICS came out in the early 90's, during a period when they stopped doing MASTERWORKS, and before they started doing ESSENTIALS. Each issue reprinted a Ditko comic, but with a new cover.
SPIDER-MAN COLLECTIBLE SERIES were giveaways included with Sunday newspapers. Each issue reprinted HALF of a Ditko comic. The first 5 Spidey stories were half-length, after that, I guess they were reprinted as "2-parters".
I've got the one for ASM #1-2 up now, gotta go back and do the ones for AF #15.
My own feeling about reprint collections is, if there are "alternate" covers, they should be included as bonuses. That would include the early-70's covers (many, MANY of them by Gil Kane), the ones mentiuoned above, and any foreign covers or unused / rejected ones. (I saw a foreign reprint of HULK ANNUAL #1 that had a Marie Severin cover on it. The US version had a Steranko cover! The US reprint had Gil Kane. Masterworks should have included ALL 3.)
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Someone at another board wondered how many of the 60's cartoons were based on comics...
Only a few stories in the 1st year were adaptations-- "Where Crawls The Lizard" from ASM #6, "Electro, The Human Lightning Bolt" from ASM #9, "The Menace Of Mysterio" from ASM #13 (my favorite of the entire series, and I feel, better than the comic), "Captured By J. Jonah Jameson" from ASM #25, "Never Step On A Scorpion", from both ASM #20 and #29, and "The Terrible Triumph Of Doctor Octopus" from ASM #53. (After that issue's cliffhanger, the cartoon went in a completely different direction.)
The 2nd season, by a completely different studio, did "The Origin Of Spiderman" (his name tended to appear without the hyphen in episode titles) from-- NOT AF #15, but instead, SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN #1 (1968), and "King Pinned" from ASM #51.
The 3rd season-- whose shorter episodes MAY have started out as unfinished leftovers from the earlier studio (just my own speculation), included "The Big Brainwasher" from ASM #59, 69 and 52 (I'm not making this up!) and "The Madness Of Mysterio" from ASM #66-67.
However, after decades of watching the shows over and over, and re-reading the Ditko run, I came to the conclusion that some of the 2nd season were VERY LOOSELY inspired by some of the comics, but with so many changes it took me this long to even recognize the source material. This includes "Swing City" from ASM #3 (The Master Technician's motives in taking over the power plant are identical to those of Doc Ock's) mixed with TALES OF SUSPENSE #90 (A Cap-Red Skull story involving lifting Manhattan into the air), and "Pardo Presents" from ASM #16 (the plot involves hypnotizing an audience and robbing them; both villains' costumes have similar color schemes) and ASM #30 ("The Claws Of The Cat" involves a cat-burglar and a rooftop battle around a water-tower).
I also have a suspicion that "Neptune's Nose Cone"-- Spidey at the South Pole where he finds a primitive jungle (but no Ka-Zar), may have inspired Roy & Gil's ASM #103-104.
Oh yeah-- and while I spent decades thinking "Menace From The Bottom Of The World" was a demented remake of FF #31 (and the 1967 cartoon based on it), it turns out to actually have been an adaptation of "One Of Our Skyscrapers Is Missing" from ADVENTURES OF THE FLY #2! (Makes me think Kirby was paying tribute to the earlier Joe Simon-Al Williamson comic story.)
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Some thoughts I just posted at another board...
I tend to think that in any hero's life, ONE great tragedy is enough, to serve as a springboard to turn a "normal guy" into something more. Uncle Ben was that tragedy. The last thing Peter wanted was a repeat of that. Hence his total focus on May in ASM #31 (screw the self-serving idiots who couldn't see he had something on his mind) and his "rampage" in ASM #32. It wasn't beating Ock that counted (in fact, Ock escaped). It was saving May. He did! And I LOVED the scene, after, when Pete STANDS UP to Jameson and you can see he no longer intends to put up with his S*** anymore. Even Jameson realizes something changed.
And THAT is a very big problem, if you continue reading past where Ditko left. I initially came to SPIDER-MAN via the 1967 Grantray-Lawrence cartoons. Those 20 episodes show a much more relaxed, fun-loving hero than Ditko portrayed-- but now that you mention it, he may very well be the kind Ditko might have done had Pete continued to evolve.
Instead, on the one hand you have a "softening" and "nicening up" of a number of the supporting cast (some of whom were borderline scum before this-- I simply cannot believe Flash ever "grew up" when I read Ditko's stories), and on the other, a Peter who continually, repeatedly, has self-doubts, doubts about other people, puts up with harrassment and abuse from others (especially Jameson), and just seems incapable of ever being happy.
I'm dumbfounded that so many readers over the years seem to accept this as normal, and somehow ENJOY it, even INSIST on it. it got worse when Gil Kane got on the book (twice), and it somehow continued to get worse with Ross Andru, etc. etc. etc. Spider-Man is the only series I can recall where I got FED UP with it and quit buying it... THREE times over the years. After the third time, that was it. I have never picked up a current issue in ages now.
I've read very few QUESTION stories by Ditko, but it struck me that Vic Sage looked a LOT like I imagine Peter would when he "grew up". Meanwhile, and this somehow completely slipped my notice, someone else pointed out that Ted Kord ALSO resembled a grown-up Peter to an extent. The thought being, Sage was like Peter if he'd stayed in journalism, Kord if he'd followed a career in science.
Looking back, I'd have liked to have seen Ditko continue on Spidey... IF he could have avoided all that "objectivism" CRAP.
Imagine if Ditko had written & pencilled Spidey... and John Romita had INKED it! When he left DC, Romita told Stan all he really wanted to do was ink. But Stan wouldn't have it. I sometimes wonder what kind of editor Stan might have been if comics were run like a REAL business... and creators OWNED the characters, instead of the publisher.
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I've read most of the interviewws with Joey Q about OMIT. Nice guy...
Essentially throws JMS under the bus for the way OMD happened...saying that he and others had to essentially rewrite issue 4 of OMD to salvage the BND idea. How about the fact that you are the EIC and should have known what was happening...instead of waiting unti three issues in to say that things went completely wrong.
Then he claims that he did OMIT as his fulfillment of a promise to the fans to explain what happened. And lo and behold, in the process, admits that he so cleverly wiped OMD from continuity. He had to come in and save Peter from what JMS did...yet he still went along with it in the beginning.
I'm sure that it had nothing to do with the fact that they had really screwed up with how they undid the marraige. Mephisto getting Peter to strike a deal??? That was the best you could come up with at the time?
I won't even get into whhat I have heard is the "now" reason for them not getting married...some random thug beaning him with a cinder block...from any distance? Spidey sense? Reflexes? Been thrown through walls by super powered villians before...yet one cinderr block makes all the difference? Sorry, said I wasn't going to go there.
Face facts true believers...Joey annd JMS screwed the pooch with Spidey. Not taking into account the other debacles that JMS put out during his run...Gwen and Norman...WTF?!?!?!?!
This was his best attempt at fixingthings...a cinder block to the head of a hero that has faced sooooo much worse than that over the years.
And people wonder why I say I love Spider-Man, but refuse to read his book. It may be some of the best stories to come along in years...but it's all based on really sad, pathetic storytelling.
Thank the Lord for the Essentials.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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MJ is the one to outsart and outwit Mephisto into never being involved with the situation to begin with...?
I like MJ as much as any comic character...but outsmarting the Devil? She was never that smart from what I've read. Not slamming her or calling her dumb...just saying that I do not see her as the type to figure out a way to outsmart the devil in a couple panels of time.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by profh0011: Some thoughts I just posted at another board...
I tend to think that in any hero's life, ONE great tragedy is enough, to serve as a springboard to turn a "normal guy" into something more. Uncle Ben was that tragedy. The last thing Peter wanted was a repeat of that. Hence his total focus on May in ASM #31 (screw the self-serving idiots who couldn't see he had something on his mind) and his "rampage" in ASM #32. It wasn't beating Ock that counted (in fact, Ock escaped). It was saving May. He did! And I LOVED the scene, after, when Pete STANDS UP to Jameson and you can see he no longer intends to put up with his S*** anymore. Even Jameson realizes something changed.
And THAT is a very big problem, if you continue reading past where Ditko left. I initially came to SPIDER-MAN via the 1967 Grantray-Lawrence cartoons. Those 20 episodes show a much more relaxed, fun-loving hero than Ditko portrayed-- but now that you mention it, he may very well be the kind Ditko might have done had Pete continued to evolve.
Instead, on the one hand you have a "softening" and "nicening up" of a number of the supporting cast (some of whom were borderline scum before this-- I simply cannot believe Flash ever "grew up" when I read Ditko's stories), and on the other, a Peter who continually, repeatedly, has self-doubts, doubts about other people, puts up with harrassment and abuse from others (especially Jameson), and just seems incapable of ever being happy.
I'm dumbfounded that so many readers over the years seem to accept this as normal, and somehow ENJOY it, even INSIST on it. it got worse when Gil Kane got on the book (twice), and it somehow continued to get worse with Ross Andru, etc. etc. etc. Spider-Man is the only series I can recall where I got FED UP with it and quit buying it... THREE times over the years. After the third time, that was it. I have never picked up a current issue in ages now.
I've read very few QUESTION stories by Ditko, but it struck me that Vic Sage looked a LOT like I imagine Peter would when he "grew up". Meanwhile, and this somehow completely slipped my notice, someone else pointed out that Ted Kord ALSO resembled a grown-up Peter to an extent. The thought being, Sage was like Peter if he'd stayed in journalism, Kord if he'd followed a career in science.
Looking back, I'd have liked to have seen Ditko continue on Spidey... IF he could have avoided all that "objectivism" CRAP.
Imagine if Ditko had written & pencilled Spidey... and John Romita had INKED it! When he left DC, Romita told Stan all he really wanted to do was ink. But Stan wouldn't have it. I sometimes wonder what kind of editor Stan might have been if comics were run like a REAL business... and creators OWNED the characters, instead of the publisher.
Fascinating comments Prof! Especially the part on Ted Kord and Vic Sage and how they could easily have been a grown-up Peter Parker, especially post ASM #33. I actually can't wait to tell my Dad your thoughts, he'll really be interested.
quote:Originally posted by Dev Em: I've read most of the interviewws with Joey Q about OMIT. Nice guy...
Essentially throws JMS under the bus for the way OMD happened...saying that he and others had to essentially rewrite issue 4 of OMD to salvage the BND idea. How about the fact that you are the EIC and should have known what was happening...instead of waiting unti three issues in to say that things went completely wrong.
Then he claims that he did OMIT as his fulfillment of a promise to the fans to explain what happened. And lo and behold, in the process, admits that he so cleverly wiped OMD from continuity. He had to come in and save Peter from what JMS did...yet he still went along with it in the beginning.
I'm sure that it had nothing to do with the fact that they had really screwed up with how they undid the marraige. Mephisto getting Peter to strike a deal??? That was the best you could come up with at the time?
I won't even get into whhat I have heard is the "now" reason for them not getting married...some random thug beaning him with a cinder block...from any distance? Spidey sense? Reflexes? Been thrown through walls by super powered villians before...yet one cinderr block makes all the difference? Sorry, said I wasn't going to go there.
Face facts true believers...Joey annd JMS screwed the pooch with Spidey. Not taking into account the other debacles that JMS put out during his run...Gwen and Norman...WTF?!?!?!?!
This was his best attempt at fixingthings...a cinder block to the head of a hero that has faced sooooo much worse than that over the years.
And people wonder why I say I love Spider-Man, but refuse to read his book. It may be some of the best stories to come along in years...but it's all based on really sad, pathetic storytelling.
Thank the Lord for the Essentials.
Dev, I just finished OMIT today. A lot of the criticisms you've mentioned and you'll see online are pretty fair. The story read more like a bullet-point guideline on what the continuity now looks like. It easily could have been Joe Q listing this in a powerpoint to the fans.
Am I glad the Mephisto nonsense is erased from continuity. Sure! It should never have been there in the first place though. Mucking with the continuity is never good and re-mucking to fix it has never really worked (re: DC post-crisis). I hope this is the final chapter of this bad dream.
Regarding JMS & Joe Q on the Gwen/Norman relationship, I've read several accounts that this was all Joe Q and not JMS really much at all. Therefore, I reserve my ire for Joe Q and am letting JMS off the hook. *That* retcon is something I am much more mad about that anything else, including the marriage resolution.
The actual OMIT story itself, in which a regular guy is the reason Spidey doesn't marry Mary Jane is done to point out how the everyday normal aspects of being Spider-Man could interfere with Spidey's personal life. So it's definitely on purpose that is isn't a super-villain or something more epic or grandiose than a regular guy. Whether it succeeds as a story is up to the reader--I'm quite sure you would hate it (the execution in story, not the idea, which you quite clearly already hate ). Personally, I thought it wasn't that offensive, but it's not exactly the greatest thing I've ever read.
Was OMIT as awful as Brand New Day? No. Would I recommend anyone spend their hard-earned money on it? No.
Great art though (except the Joe Q parts, whose art actually isn't a style I ever liked, before he became the controversial editor in chief he is now).
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I cannot hate it per se...as I will never read through the entire thing. Fair or not. I am going off of a lot of different things. What I saw flipping through the books, pages I have seen onlines and more reviews than I can shake a stick at...and especially the interview with Joe himself.
I think it's really low of him to throw JMS under the bus like that...then say (and I'm paraphrasing) "oh, but it really falls to me..."
Sorry if I seem a bit more vicious about this whole thing than I probably am, I just really feel disheartened about what they did to a great character.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I hear ya! I may not feel as angry toward this as you, but it still is annoying (and you know certain other things can send me into a fury).
"One More Day" is a contender for worst Spider-Man story of all time. It's unforgivable.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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I probably spent WAY more time on this restoration than was called for, but as far as I'm concerned, it's done. If you go to the site, not only can you see the upgraded image, you can also check out the "Amazing" compare page. Yes-- EVERY reprint of this comic than I know of (at least in the US) is on display, all on one page!
By the way, I love the subtle color shading on The Vulture's costume. I look at something like that, and I wonder... HOW did Stan Goldberg DO that???
Considering what I know about the complex, confusing processes by which art got colored (engraved, separated, printed)... I'm sure glad with digital coloring & printing, I'll NEVER have to worry about this sort of thing.
I seem to recall that there was a general feeling when Marv took over to try and "freshen up" the book, as there was a general feeling that Len had been marking time for his entire 3 years on the book. My impression always was that Len had ONE big story in mind when he got on, and spread it out over 3 whole years. And during that time, Mike Esposito really let the quality of his inks go TO HELL, so the art looked AWFUL. I was informed by someone who worked for Marvel at the time that one of the editors (or maybe Stan himself) called Mike out on it, told him to clean up his act. You can see during the "3rd Green Goblin" story how much BETTER Esposito's inks looked than they had for several years by then. This continued for at least a year, before he started ot let is slide again.
But after Marv took over, he started getting other artists on the book, including Pollard, Starlin, Byrne, I suppose to shake things up a bit. I see Bob McLeod inked a couple issues around that time, including the Starlin one. MAN, did that look good! (I've long considered McLeod one of the BEST inkers in the biz.) If my index is right, after Andru left, almost every penciller who worked for Marv was doing layouts, the inkers were doing "finishes". Maybe that helped inspire those guys to just knock themselves out and do better, more inspired work?
Marv also started to shake up the overall "story", by finally having Pete graduate college (longest 4 years in college history, hmm?), but be missing some classes and so need to do make-up in order to get his diploma. He also had that LONG-standing "suspected of murder" thing cleared up. I was never quite sure if that was supposed to be over Gwen Stacy or Captain Stacy, but enough was enough. He also showed what happened to Man-Wolf after his MARVEL TEAM-UP appearance (and if I recall rightly, the finale of his trip to the moon had NOT yet been published-- it finally showed up not long after, in MARVEL PREMIERE-- one of the GOOD things Jim Shooter did early in his run as EIC, cleaning up loose ends and getting out unpublished stories like that).
And then of course you had the death of Aunt May... (Really? NOT really? Hmm...)
Registered: Aug 2003
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"Norman Osborn’s memory has returned. The Green Goblin is back. Gwen Stacy is missing. And it will all lead to a confrontation atop the George Washington Bridge whose aftermath will leave Peter Parker, the Amazing Spider-Man, forever changed."
I hate to point this out, but, what one single word balloon said INCORRECTLY notwithstanding (hey, the guy HAD THE FLU!!!)...
It was THE BROOKLYN BRIDGE, fer cryin' out loud!!!!!
Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by profh0011: from the MASTERWORKS solicitation page:
"Norman Osborn’s memory has returned. The Green Goblin is back. Gwen Stacy is missing. And it will all lead to a confrontation atop the George Washington Bridge whose aftermath will leave Peter Parker, the Amazing Spider-Man, forever changed."
I hate to point this out, but, what one single word balloon said INCORRECTLY notwithstanding (hey, the guy HAD THE FLU!!!)...
It was THE BROOKLYN BRIDGE, fer cryin' out loud!!!!!
I always found this debate so fascinating when I was a kid because people were so sure of themselves. Back then, I just went with the GW Bridge side because they said it in the story.
Now that I spend quite a lot of time in Manhattan for work, I agree that it is 100% the Brooklyn Bridge!
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by profh0011: MARV AND THE MAN-WOLF
(more ramblings I posted at another board...)
I seem to recall that there was a general feeling when Marv took over to try and "freshen up" the book, as there was a general feeling that Len had been marking time for his entire 3 years on the book. My impression always was that Len had ONE big story in mind when he got on, and spread it out over 3 whole years. And during that time, Mike Esposito really let the quality of his inks go TO HELL, so the art looked AWFUL. I was informed by someone who worked for Marvel at the time that one of the editors (or maybe Stan himself) called Mike out on it, told him to clean up his act. You can see during the "3rd Green Goblin" story how much BETTER Esposito's inks looked than they had for several years by then. This continued for at least a year, before he started ot let is slide again.
But after Marv took over, he started getting other artists on the book, including Pollard, Starlin, Byrne, I suppose to shake things up a bit. I see Bob McLeod inked a couple issues around that time, including the Starlin one. MAN, did that look good! (I've long considered McLeod one of the BEST inkers in the biz.) If my index is right, after Andru left, almost every penciller who worked for Marv was doing layouts, the inkers were doing "finishes". Maybe that helped inspire those guys to just knock themselves out and do better, more inspired work?
Marv also started to shake up the overall "story", by finally having Pete graduate college (longest 4 years in college history, hmm?), but be missing some classes and so need to do make-up in order to get his diploma. He also had that LONG-standing "suspected of murder" thing cleared up. I was never quite sure if that was supposed to be over Gwen Stacy or Captain Stacy, but enough was enough. He also showed what happened to Man-Wolf after his MARVEL TEAM-UP appearance (and if I recall rightly, the finale of his trip to the moon had NOT yet been published-- it finally showed up not long after, in MARVEL PREMIERE-- one of the GOOD things Jim Shooter did early in his run as EIC, cleaning up loose ends and getting out unpublished stories like that).
And then of course you had the death of Aunt May... (Really? NOT really? Hmm...)
I've talked about it before in this thread, but I'll reiterate I totally agree with what you're saying Prof. Marv's run has a real sense of "moving things forward" on almost all levels and it's a welcome point when you read the entire run of Spider-Man. So many subplots continued from Gerry and even the Silver Age are finally tied up. Such as Spidey wanted for 2 murders: Captain Stacy and Norman Osborn (you actually learn in a one sentence off-comment by D.A. Tower that Spidey was cleared of Osborn's death months ago off-panel).
The artwork changes in a big way too after Ross Andru like you mention. Something also noteworthy is some point during Marv's run, the paper improved. It's quite noticable and makes for a shinier, nicer finish.
You mention a few artists that Marv brought on and one who is highly underrated from that era if Keith Pollard. He did some great work on Thor, Spider-Man and elsewhere and I wonder what he's up to today? He was never my favorite, in that he stood out among the rest, but when I reread the old issues, I always enjoy seeing his artwork. (And he had a great signature on his cover pages that stood out).
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Keith Polard's output over the years surprised me, when you consider how he started out. Like George Perez, Pollard & Arvell Jones were assistants' of Rich Buckler. I believe I first saw both Jones & Pollard together on IRON MAN late in Mike Friedrich's run, when they replaced George Tuska, who took a long break after 2 different runs on the book. Fan reaction was universally negative. Pollard disappeared and Jones finished out a few issues by himself, but not before blowing deadlines so bad it required 2 separate "inventory" stories (by Mantlo, Tuska & Colletta) and a "deadline doom reprint" (by Goodwin, Tuska & Craig). I'd have to check, but it seems Jones drew 3 issues of IRON FIST around the same time, with at leats 3 different inkers, all of them bad, the last one the worst (Aubrey Bradford, at the time, got my vote for WORST inker in Marvel history... I ran into him at a convention 20 years later, he'd gotten a LOT better!)
And then there was Don McGregor's tragic run on POWER MAN. After one issue of a 3-parter drawn by Tuska, part 2 was done by Buckler, Jones AND Pollard. (Part 3 by Sal Buscema & "The Crusty Bunkers"-- can you say "editorial CHAOS"??)
McGregor's run of BLACK PANTHER also had a sad ending. After he lost Billy Graham to the theatre (he'd decided to focus on his acting career for awhile), Rich Buckler returned to the book. And promptly BLEW the deadlin on hbis 2nd issue. It was so late, after a deadline doom reprint (of a DAREDEVIL story guest-starring the Panther), they got Keith Pollard to RE-PENCIL the entire issue, AND, ink it! And then 4 weeks later, Jack Kirby's completely unrelated story hit the stands... what a slap in the face! (When I found out Buckler had actually pencilled the entire episode-- his pages remain unpublished-- I began to think someone should get him & McGregor back together to FINISH that storyline the way Don had originally intended it. Hey, if Craig Russell could draw the same DR. STRANGE story twice, why not publish an "alternate" version of the "KLAN" story?)
So when I think of how Pollard pulled himself up with those runs of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, FANTASTIC FOUR (2 different runs of FF, if I recall), fill-ins for George Perez on JLA, a SILVER SURFER graphic novel (which he inked himself, showing just how slicker his inks had become over the years), it's pretty amazing. What's he doing these days? that's a question that could apply to MOST artists I grew up with or followed for decades after.
Incidentally, one thing that really separated Perez & Pollard was how much DETAIL they'd put into their pencils. On the FF, Joe Sinnott supposedly once asked Perez, "Hey, leave something for ME to do!" Pollard, meanwhile, was so "loose", Sinnott wound up doing the BULK of the work. So, when Sinnott missed an issue... OH MAN, WAS IT BAD!
Meanwhile, Arvell Jones surprised me when he jumped over to DC. I saw him on an issue of SUPER-TEAM FAMILY (talk about an awkward name for a magazine), then a run of ALL-STAR SQUADRON severl years later. His art had improved so much since his Marvel days, it was hard to believe it was the same guy!
[ October 11, 2010, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: profh0011 ]
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). Personally, I thought it wasn't that offensive, but it's not exactly the greatest thing I've ever read.
