posted
I always lump the Medusa and Black Widow appearances together when I talk about them even though there were a dozen or so issues apart because they served the same basic purpose. You point out another interesting thing: the Medusa story was somewhat silly, but in a good way; the Black Widow story also had a bit of this silliness, but it simply didn't work with Natasha.
This is a really a key issue for the Black Widow in her history too: it bridges her Avengers appearances to her stint in Amazing Adventures (and then Daredevil). I suspect most people don't realize it was in Spider-Man where she first got her black costume, the one most associated with her.
There were two great prison riot issues in the first 100 issues: one in the early-mid 60's (a classic) and one in #99. The latter one was perhaps not quite as solid from a story standpoint but it had that Gil Kane art where he was just channeling horror so well. You mention above the Morbuis/Lizard story that is basically a horror comic, and #99 a few issues prior really has that kind of claustrophobic, super-intense Kane art. Some of the prisoners look like they might lose their freaking minds at any minute.
That era was truly the second great age of horror comics, with DC and Marvel now taking a cue from Creepy and leading the charge. Gil Kane really gave his all to Marvel in a ton of different ways (his covers on the reprint Westerns alone were amazing), and his horror work just stands out. You're 70's review thread really goes into this well.
When I was a kid I hated the Morbius story because of Spidey having 6 arms, which was something my Dad hated--he'd gotten out of comics entirely a few years earlier (never getting over Ditko leaving) and happened to check back in right as Spidey had 6 arms, and immediately deciding not to continue, thinking it might be permanent. (He eventually came back full-time in 1980 and hunted down all the Spider-Man's he missed). But eventually, I warmed up to it and came to really enjoy the story because it was just so out there, y'know? 6 armed Spidey, Morbius, the Lizard...off the wall stuff and FUN! I also love the Kraven, Ka-Zar, Gog story that followed for the same type of spirit exhibited. Both showcase Gil Kane putting Spidey in the genres of the era (horror and then monster-adventure).
Plus that latter story had Gwen in a bikini all issue and as I said, she was the great fictional love of my life when I was a kid (and still ).
I never realized they reprinted stories in Marvel Tales out of order. That must have been mind-numbingly frustrating!! Marvel should really have a Marvel Tales series reprinting Spidey these days about 3-5 years behind the current issues like it used to be, and for about $1.99. I be they'd make a killing.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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I'm pretty sure John Romita designed Natasha's 2nd costume (as a tribute to Diana Rigg, no doubt, though most Americans didn't know her outfits started with Honor Blackman). For most of the 70's, The Black Widow was on my short list of sexiest women in comics, even if she didn't always get good writing. Anybody know-- was the mask & fishnets outfit designed by Don Heck, or Jack Kirby? That itself was no doubt a tribute to the earlier characters BLACK CANARY (Carmine Infantino's self-proclaimed "ideal image of a woman") and BLACK CAT (the Lee Elias biker girl character).
"it had that Gil Kane art where he was just channeling horror so well. You mention above the Morbuis/Lizard story that is basically a horror comic, and #99 a few issues prior really has that kind of claustrophobic, super-intense Kane art. Some of the prisoners look like they might lose their freaking minds at any minute."
I've long felt MOST of Gil Kane's art had that vibe about it. Remember his brief run on DAREDEVIL written by Jim Shooter? Especially the last one, #151, where Matt has his nervous breakdown (which made its way into the live-action movie). I keep hoping someday they'll do a "Wally Wood" or "Gene Colan" DD movie, with Stilt-Man and Masked Marauder as the baddies (YES, STILT-MAN!), and Karen Page as the love interest. I don't know where it came from, but I actually had a DREAM about going to the theatre to see this movie they never made several weeks ago!
"his covers on the reprint Westerns alone were amazing"
I posted a number of them at the SA site a few weeks ago in the WESTERN GUNFIGHTERS section. Some are terrific, others I'd just call "brutal!!".
"When I was a kid I hated the Morbius story because of Spidey having 6 arms, which was something my Dad hated--he'd gotten out of comics entirely a few years earlier (never getting over Ditko leaving) and happened to check back in right as Spidey had 6 arms, and immediately deciding not to continue, thinking it might be permanent."
Somehow or other, my Mom must have picked that thing up-- she was into horror, and I guess the title "VAMPIRE AT LARGE!" grabbed her attention. That issue, as far as I can recall, was my very 1st exposure to Gil Kane. What a shock! Some of his figure-work seemed awkward, and I didn't think his Gwen looked as pretty as she should have. Over the years it's taken me a LONG time to appreciate Kane's "intense" style, but he has slowly grown on me. One of the things that did it was actually drawing most of a comic-book story using SWIPES of his panels, as a tribute. By the time I was done, I realized his sensitivities were totally different than mine (I had so much trouble in spots), but it also increased my appreciation for him. The next story I drew was done mostly in STEVE DITKO swipes-- also as a fun experiment & tribute. I was shocked when that worked out so well. I'd never have imagined my sensibilities could be so in tune with his!
"I never realized they reprinted stories in Marvel Tales out of order. That must have been mind-numbingly frustrating!!"
One of Nick Simon's coolest ideas at the SA Marvel site was "compare" pages to show original and reprint covers side-by-side. But one of the biggest changes I made when I started work on the side was changing the "compare" pages from being linked in sequence to the reprints, to linked in sequence to the originals. I did this specifically because of how CHAOTIC Marvel's reprints have been over the years.
One example that stands out in my head was Iron Man, which started in MARVEL'S COLLECTOR ITEM CLASSICS/MARVEL'S GREATEST COMICS, but then moved to MARVEL SUPER-HEROES before landing in MARVEL DOUBLE-FEATURE (with a pair of IRON MAN ANNUALs in between).
I was so thrilled in the late 70's when I got my first job and was able to start going to comic book conventions and buying the originals of so many 60's comics, for relatively cheap. I only wish I'd bought a lot more, before prices went completely insane.
When MARVEL TALES "started over" in the early 80's it was the first time they had ever reprinted the entire Ditko era-- EVERY episode-- in sequence (well, maybe not the Annuals). ASM #29, the 2nd Scorpion story, had NEVER been reprinted, and when they approached that issue, they discovered the reason was, no stats or negatives could be found. So they hired outside help (Owen McCarron did the work) to RE-CREATE the art so new stats could be shot, which have been used (more or less) ever since. I later figured out while watching the '67 cartoons that the original stats may have been loaned to Grantray-Lawrence for reference, since quite a few panels from that issue were recognizably animated in the 1st Scorpion cartoon (a combination adaptation of the 1st AND 2nd stories from the comics). When G-L went belly-up, apparently a lot of art they had in their possession "went home" with their former employees.
What really pissed me off about the 80's MARVEL TALES run was, they stopped with #50. One episode into a 3-parter! To this day, I have still NEVER READ #51-52, even though I've seen the TV adaptation(s) of it dozens and dozens of times. ("KING PINNED", with the climax from the comic actually appearing in "THE BIG BRAINWASHER"-- go figure.)
Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Sal Buscema and his artwork is something that I had to overcome too as a kid. When I was very young, about 12-14, I absolutely disliked Sal’s work quite a bit, especially his late 80’s/early 90’s stuff. In fact, I did realize this was the same Sal Buscema that began Spectacular Spider-Man when it first debuted in the mid-70’s! But in my mid-late teens, I really started to appreciate and like Sal’s artwork and in fact, nowadays, I absolutely love it. I really mean that—I enjoy looking at it and wish he could come back for a Spider-Man story once in awhile. It was really his facial expressions that were hard to get used to; his action sequences were always really good, and he had that explosive style of the old days of Marvel. Spectacular Spider-Man was always “Sal’s book” among the Spidey titles to me.
Yeah, you nailed it--the facial expressions were what turned me off initially. They seemed kind of out of place on a Spider-man book. You see, I was 100% fine with Sal's work on Thor after Walt Simonson stopped pencilling but remained as writer. His style fit in well with Walt's and, honestly, Sal had altered his style somewhat to fit in with what Walt had been doing. I was used to more exaggeration and stylistic choices on that book, so his work on Thor worked for me very well. I liked it a lot.
But Spider-man at the time was a more vanilla book traditionally with its art in that era with the rare exceptions of Todd McFarlane and then Erik Larsen. Sal's style was neither super-progressive like McFarlane nor of the Spider-man house style that had been prevalent with such artists as Romita Jr. (his early work, of course), Al Milgrom, Rick Burchet, Ross Andru or various others who'd been on the Spidey books--all inoffensive and unremarkable but with a certain consistency and contemporary feel to them.
Sal on Spectacular by comparison just felt too '70s. He shared some stylistic similarities in his artistic approach to Gil Kane, another artist it took me a long time to warm up to. So with Sal we had neither the progressive flair that had shown up recently in Amazing nor the Spidey house style of recent times. It was retro and exaggerated, especially in the facial expressions. But like I said, it eventually grew on me, and I could appreciate the craft, just as I came to with Gil Kane.
quote:Like I said, Tombstone is a big favorite of mine. A lot of that is nostalgia, but that’s not a bad thing. I found him to be incredibly menacing, and a lot of that had to be because he was going after Joe Robertson, almost fatherly figure in Spidey’s history that I was horrified to see in such harm’s way. I found Tombstone’s look to be terrifying when I was a kid. And when they powered him up a bit, I didn’t mind that either.
Tombstone was one of the rare attempts to create someone knew for Spidey to fight and a way to make Robbie more relevant in the supporting cast, so I applaud Conway for bringing him in. But doesn't my "bastard child of Michael Morbius and J. Jonah Jameson" comment just nail it on the head?
quote:The Harry / Vermin story was an awesome story with excellent art like you say. I agree—the Sal Buscema Green Goblin *is* the Harry GG to me. SSM #200, in which Harry dies, was beautifully done. I actually have always hated that Harry died, finding it redundant and wasteful. However, I *always* reread that issue when I went through the series, because of Sal’s excellent art. Getting back to the Vermin/GG story, the cover to #178 (if my memory serves me correctly—and it should) is the best Vermin cover of all time. It’s just really dynamic. I highly recommend some poster who is less lazy than me post a pic of it.
This one?
Man! That DeMatteis/Buscema run was, well, spectacular wasn't it? I see now it was longer than I'd originally thought, at about two years. I've often found it disappointing that he and Peter David never seemed to stick around on Spidey for a very long time, as they and Roger Stern have the best knack for writing the character other than Stan himself, IMO.
quote:Another SSM story around that time that really showcased Sal’s work was the Puma / Black Crow story, which took place in Arizona (or where Puma lives, that I forget). The story itself wasn’t anything spectacular (though still solid) but the artwork was.
Sorry, only the vaguest of recollections about those Puma issues, Des. Probably my strongest impressions of that character were from stories by Tom DeFalco and Peter David.
quote:I never liked the retread stuff with the Jackal and Gwen in that SSM annual if that’s what you’re talking about—the one with the High Evolutionary. I felt it hurt the original story. The Carrion II stuff though I liked because he had such a great visual it was cool to see him return. However, Carrion II never had the grandeur of Carrion I in the PPTSS late 20’s/early 30’s, in which Carrion was the perfect heir to the legacy of Green Goblin I – Green Goblin II – the Jackal – Green Goblin III. He was another mystery villain of epic proportions that was distinct from what came before but completely based on prior continuity.
Again, the memory's imperfect here, but I recall that Gerry in his use of the Jackal, Carrion and the Gwen clone was trying to explain that they were never actually clones to fit in, I think, to fit in to some editorial edict or ret-conning of some sort (memory very fuzzy, there). Somehow, I enjoyed it anyway because I'd read reprints of the original stories and was glad to see them revisited, even with a revisionist bent, by the writer who'd come up with all of these concepts in the first place.
In a way the annual and the Carrion stories Conway did undermined the previous stories, but just the fact that they were being revisited was enjoyable in any way was fun for me. Then came the Clone Saga and took things too, TOO far...
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by profh0011: I'm pretty sure John Romita designed Natasha's 2nd costume (as a tribute to Diana Rigg, no doubt, though most Americans didn't know her outfits started with Honor Blackman). For most of the 70's, The Black Widow was on my short list of sexiest women in comics, even if she didn't always get good writing. Anybody know-- was the mask & fishnets outfit designed by Don Heck, or Jack Kirby? That itself was no doubt a tribute to the earlier characters BLACK CANARY (Carmine Infantino's self-proclaimed "ideal image of a woman") and BLACK CAT (the Lee Elias biker girl character).
You know, I also have no idea who designed the Black Widow’s original ‘costume’ with the fishnets. Either way, while her personality was sexy, she was never explicitly attractive in it by either Kirby or Heck. In fact, she was really outshined by the beautiful Wanda in her Avengers appearances. Like you said though, once she got the second costume, she was quickly among the sexiest comic book characters in the entire 70’s. Again, as a redhead, you can see how she was right up Romita’s ally. She’s similar enough in appearance to Mary Jane, but with the sexy spy attitude added and a sleek costume showcasing her figure. What’s not to like?
While we’re on the topic, I’ll also note that Quicksilver has the same type of appearance as Medusa and Black Widow—showing up in Spider-Man to ‘stay on the radar’ for the readers. Only, Peitro & Wanda weren’t getting their own series (I’m never sure if this occurred right in the middle of the two Avengers / Magneto stories when Roy took over or not), and also, Quicksilver showed up smack dab in the middle of the Tablet Saga, so I always fit it into that. I really love the Tablet Saga, which isn’t so much a saga but a string of stories connected by the Tablet. It wasn’t perfect but had a lot of terrific sequences: some great campus drama (man, I hated Josh, Randy’s friend, when I was a kid), the Kingpin once more, Shocker, Man Mountain Marko (who I always have a fondness for), Silvermane (who was so awesome in his first story they should NEVER have brought him back) and then the Lizard. Plus all kinds of little things like Caesar Cicero, a spineless little gangster thrown in there.
The more we talk, the more I think I need a solid official reread of the entire Spider-Man run complete with in depth reviews of each issue (with a disclaimer that most will be positive).
quote:Originally posted by Officer Taylor:
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Sal Buscema and his artwork is something that I had to overcome too as a kid. When I was very young, about 12-14, I absolutely disliked Sal’s work quite a bit, especially his late 80’s/early 90’s stuff. In fact, I did realize this was the same Sal Buscema that began Spectacular Spider-Man when it first debuted in the mid-70’s! But in my mid-late teens, I really started to appreciate and like Sal’s artwork and in fact, nowadays, I absolutely love it. I really mean that—I enjoy looking at it and wish he could come back for a Spider-Man story once in awhile. It was really his facial expressions that were hard to get used to; his action sequences were always really good, and he had that explosive style of the old days of Marvel. Spectacular Spider-Man was always “Sal’s book” among the Spidey titles to me.
Yeah, you nailed it--the facial expressions were what turned me off initially. They seemed kind of out of place on a Spider-man book. You see, I was 100% fine with Sal's work on Thor after Walt Simonson stopped pencilling but remained as writer. His style fit in well with Walt's and, honestly, Sal had altered his style somewhat to fit in with what Walt had been doing. I was used to more exaggeration and stylistic choices on that book, so his work on Thor worked for me very well. I liked it a lot.
But Spider-man at the time was a more vanilla book traditionally with its art in that era with the rare exceptions of Todd McFarlane and then Erik Larsen. Sal's style was neither super-progressive like McFarlane nor of the Spider-man house style that had been prevalent with such artists as Romita Jr. (his early work, of course), Al Milgrom, Rick Burchet, Ross Andru or various others who'd been on the Spidey books--all inoffensive and unremarkable but with a certain consistency and contemporary feel to them.
Sal on Spectacular by comparison just felt too '70s. He shared some stylistic similarities in his artistic approach to Gil Kane, another artist it took me a long time to warm up to. So with Sal we had neither the progressive flair that had shown up recently in Amazing nor the Spidey house style of recent times. It was retro and exaggerated, especially in the facial expressions. But like I said, it eventually grew on me, and I could appreciate the craft, just as I came to with Gil Kane.
quote:The Harry / Vermin story was an awesome story with excellent art like you say. I agree—the Sal Buscema Green Goblin *is* the Harry GG to me. SSM #200, in which Harry dies, was beautifully done. I actually have always hated that Harry died, finding it redundant and wasteful. However, I *always* reread that issue when I went through the series, because of Sal’s excellent art. Getting back to the Vermin/GG story, the cover to #178 (if my memory serves me correctly—and it should) is the best Vermin cover of all time. It’s just really dynamic. I highly recommend some poster who is less lazy than me post a pic of it.
This one?
Man! That DeMatteis/Buscema run was, well, spectacular wasn't it? I see now it was longer than I'd originally thought, at about two years. I've often found it disappointing that he and Peter David never seemed to stick around on Spidey for a very long time, as they and Roger Stern have the best knack for writing the character other than Stan himself, IMO.
Just look at that cover! That’s exactly the one I was talking about. By far the best Vermin cover of all time! How could you *not* buy that off the stands? I definitely here what you’re saying about Sal too—his art never really seemed to fit any mold, except, oddly enough, Walt’s Thor. When I look back at this era, of all the Spider-titles, Sal was Spectacular which I now like, ASM had either McFarlane (who I loved) or Larsen (who I liked but not quite as much) and then there was Web of Spider-Man, which because it had a more traditional look to it, feels slightly flatter to me now. It’s still fine, mind you, and I can’t complain, but its just not as dynamic.
Regarding DeMatteis, I agree whole-heartedly—he’s one of the great Spider-Man writers of all time, and I love when he returns to the character. He’s had several runs, and sometimes they are where you least expect them, like a fairly excellent post-Clone Saga run in the late 90’s. He even writes a story or two these days in the post-BND world. Of course, my favorite story of his will always be Kraven’s Last Hunt, which is perfection all around, and is actually my father’s single favorite post-Ditko Spider-Man story ever. It would make my best of list, should I ever make one (disclaimer: I never will ). What works with DeMatteis is his knack for delving into a character and really developing them in the fullest meaning of the world. He does that with villains, supporting cast, walk-on characters and even with Peter himself, which sometimes writers forget to do. While PAD has had some great stories on Spidey, I would not put him on the list of greatest Spidey writers ever; however, Stern and DeMatteis are certainly there, coming close to Stan. And really that’s high praise because for the most part, Spidey has had some terrific writers with some great runs: Bill Mantlo, David Michellenie, Gerry Conway, Marv Wolfman (to a much lesser extent) and others.
He’s also had some great writers give some pretty mediocre runs like Len Wein and Denny O’Neil but that’s neither here nor there. (Don’t get me started on John Byrne).
FYI, of the current Spidey writers, I do think Van Lente is showing he has a feel for Spidey in a similar way to these two. I’m not just saying that—I honestly think that. Joe Kelly also has a knack for writing Spidey, but he’s more on the quirky side of things. Those are the two best current Spidey writers besides of course, Roger Stern, who now is once more a guiding force on the title.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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"she was really outshined by the beautiful Wanda in her Avengers appearances"
No question. Natasha was fantastic in TALES OF SUSPENSE, but once she turned up in AVENGERS, nobody quite seemed to know what to do with her. If you check out "Hawkeyte The Marksman" in TOS #57, I'd swear she was inspired by Sophia Loren. (I finally figured this out watching one of her films on TCM, ARABESQUE.)
"the Kingpin once more"
What's crazy, in the usual film-making habit of "mix-and-match", a sequence from the 3rd Kingpin story-- where Spidey pursues him across town, then foils an ambush as he enters a darkened warehouse, turned up as part of the 2nd Kingpin cartoon, "THE BIG BRAINWASHER". That short 10-min. cartoon contained elements from the first 3 Kingpin storylines, all meshed together in one!
Registered: Aug 2003
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Click "TITLES", "SUB-MARINER", "51-72", "MTU 14" and "INTERIORS".
Wow, you've really done a lot for the site! I haven't checked it out in quite awhile (I used to look at it regularly years ago), so its great to see so much more beyond the Silver Age!
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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While Nick himself has a lot of earlier stuff, he specifically requested I NOT go "later". However, I am planning, eventually, to add any and all reprints of the 60's material I can find.
Nick set up the entire run of SGT. FURY, but this was (mostly) because the later part of the run was MOSTLY reprints! When I went at it the other month, Nick was still missing more than half of the SF covers! He couldn't believe I managed to post ALL of them in only 3 weeks. (Mind you, they were mostly very minor clean-ups of scans taken from the GDC... I've been going after higher quality in the updates I've been doing the last month or so. That's what's taking the GHOST RIDER section so long to get finished.)
The SUB-MARINER section was actually the first one I upgraded, back in Nov'08. I just re-formatted EVERY page of it the other week, so the design of the p[ages would match the rest of the site (link buttons, spaceing) and to give it a new color scheme. While I was at it, I finally got around to adding MTU #14. MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE #2 was the first instance where I added a cover of a one series into the run of another one. (At the moment, those are the only 2 70's "team-up" issues at the entire site!)
In MTU #14, it kinda bugs me that Len Wein couldn't seem to make up his mind whether to call those critters "Aquanoids" or "Men-Fish". (Or could that be editorial tampering on Roy Thomas' part? They seemed to be doing a lot of monsters witrh the word "Man" in them right then-- Man-Wolf, Man-Thing, etc. I think Aquanoids sounds cooler...)
[ May 13, 2010, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: profh0011 ]
Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: FYI, of the current Spidey writers, I do think Van Lente is showing he has a feel for Spidey in a similar way to these two. I’m not just saying that—I honestly think that. Joe Kelly also has a knack for writing Spidey, but he’s more on the quirky side of things. Those are the two best current Spidey writers besides of course, Roger Stern, who now is once more a guiding force on the title.
Honestly, if Van Lente was writing a Spidey title solo, I'd definitely give it a hard look. But the current style with rotating writers and artist and thrice-monthly publication earns Amazing a continual pass from me indefinitely. It's tempting to just pick up the issues written by the guys I like, but that's just too damn much work!
I'm kinda surprised and a little disappointed that you wouldn't rank PAD up there with DeMatteis and Stern. Maybe part of it's his disappointing and editorially-crippling run on Friendly Neighborhood? Though I haven't read any of those stories, I would give him a pass based on the crap he had to work with, especially that stunt with Peter's outing as Spider-man.
But if that isn't what's shading your opinion of PAD's work on Spidey, I'd certainly like to hear more. To me, PAD just absolutely NAILED Peter's character, voice and attitude in ways that very few writers have achieved and told some incredibly entertaining yarns in the process.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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Yeah, you pretty much nailed it why I wouldn’t rank PAD up there, because of his Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man run. But you know, thinking about it further, you’re probably right that PAD was crippled by editorial involvement and the awful Civil War tie-in story to Peter’s life. Certainly I’ve come to realize JMS didn’t really intend for a lot of his stories to end up like they did so its only fair to assume the same happened to PAD.
So, let’s eliminate FNS from the equation, and focus on PPTSS, where PAD really got his start. And there, I absolutely love it! I really have no criticism for PAD’s run on Spectacular and instead see this as a high point in Spidey’s history, where Spectacular may have been the best Spider-Man book of them all.
Certainly, Death of Jean DeWolfe is the story everyone points to as the classic PAD story and with good reason. It’s one of the great Spider-Man stories of all time, and its chalk full of suspense and characterization, and then packs an emotional wallop. Captain DeWolfe’s death occurred at a time where death really still meant something and PAD’s heart-breaking delivery of it made it mean so much more.
PAD also introduced the Foreigner, an awesome villain for that era that wasn’t really a villain. A lesser-known PAD villain for Spidey was the Blaze, who went against him twice, that I think was a pretty great obscure bad guy. He definitely shouldn’t have passed into limbo. He also did a bunch of cool Sabertooth stories, including I think the one where the Black Cat kicks his ass?
Thinking back on PAD’s run, most of it didn’t really have many super-villains. Peter David has always excelled at making the scenarios more important than the villains and here we really see him do that. This was a great era of Spider-Man stories that were usually one-offs with no super-villains.
PAD always wrote a solid MJ in the year or two after we, the readers, learned she knew Pete was Spidey but they weren’t quite married yet. I think he was instrumental in getting the readers back on board with the MJ/Pete relationship. While DeFalco was obviously going there, PAD made it seem more seemless, as if these two long-time friends truly cared for one another beyond a friendship way despite having hesitations for revisiting it. And all of that was pretty subtle and gradual.
BTW, little known PAD fact: he created Joe’s wife, Amanda Robertson! Such an obvious idea but he was the one who did it.
All in all, PAD certainly has “Peter’s voice” down perfect, as you mention. He also had Mary Jane’s, Jonah’s and Robbie’s. My one complaint might be he didn’t really get into the other larger supporting cast but to be fair (A) ASM was already doing that and (B) if he’s getting Pete, MJ, JJJ and Robbie right *and* giving us excellent stories, I’m really starting to nitpick.
PAD also did the Sin-Eater sequel story a few years later with Electro in it, and I’ve always thought that was also a very good read. Not on par with the amazing Death of Jean DeWolfe but certainly worth buying and rereading. In a roundabout way, this connects our whole conversation on Spectacular Spider-Man as I think it was this story that was PAD’s last and Sal Buscema’s first, beginning his long run; and it also changed the title from “Peter Parker: the Spectacular Spider-Man” to the much more elegant “Spectacular Spider-Man”.
Upon further thought, I realize I may be unfair to PAD because I’m giving his FNS too much weight in my analysis. You may be right in that he deserves his ranking up there with Stern and DeMatteis. He is certainly one of the best. I also suspect he’ll eventually make his way back to writing Spider-Man, as he always seems to come around to him, just like many other former writers.
PS – thought I should mention I have a soft spot for the black costume and that’s largely because most of the black costume era stories were so solid, particularly PAD’s PPTSS and ASM under Stern and then DeFalco.
quote:Originally posted by Officer Taylor:
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: FYI, of the current Spidey writers, I do think Van Lente is showing he has a feel for Spidey in a similar way to these two. I’m not just saying that—I honestly think that. Joe Kelly also has a knack for writing Spidey, but he’s more on the quirky side of things. Those are the two best current Spidey writers besides of course, Roger Stern, who now is once more a guiding force on the title.
Honestly, if Van Lente was writing a Spidey title solo, I'd definitely give it a hard look. But the current style with rotating writers and artist and thrice-monthly publication earns Amazing a continual pass from me indefinitely. It's tempting to just pick up the issues written by the guys I like, but that's just too damn much work!
Yeah, I can’t fault you for that. For every great Spider-Man story so far there have been an equal number of mediocre ones, and a couple of real duds too.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Yeah, you pretty much nailed it why I wouldn’t rank PAD up there, because of his Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man run. But you know, thinking about it further, you’re probably right that PAD was crippled by editorial involvement and the awful Civil War tie-in story to Peter’s life. Certainly I’ve come to realize JMS didn’t really intend for a lot of his stories to end up like they did so its only fair to assume the same happened to PAD.
I don't know all the details, but I feel like PAD probably didn't know the Peter being outed as Spidey development was coming when he took the job. I just don't see him returning to Peter knowing a cheap stunt was coming that would undermine everything Peter Parker stands for. Everything I've seen of his past work, PAD would get how wrong that would be and turn it down. (I think I read an interview that implied he didn't know, but don't quote me.)
I remember that he really wanted to delve into Peter's teaching job in the early interviews. I can see PAD getting into that a lot. But the unmasking definitely pulled the rug out from underneath that angle. I'd guess that when the unmasking was a foregone conclusion PAD probably decided to stick it out and make lemonade from the lemons he was given.
All this is assumption and conjecture on my part. Like I said, I haven't even read any Friendly Neighborhood other than the early issues tying in with "The Other". I never even finished that (admittedly horrible) arc because it coincided with a temporary break collecting monthly comics I took when I started having trouble with the internet subscription service I was using. Otherwise, I fully inended to pick up Friendly Neighborhood. But all the pub the unmasking got kept me from ever following up when I got back in because the idea turned me off so much.
So discounting that run, I'm glad you ultimately agree that PAD was worthy of being considered amongst the best Spidey writers. I bet if he could've had as much absolute control creatively as he did over the Hulk, he would have had a run compatible in length to that one. But with that many monthly books and rock-tight editorial control, that wasn't ever gonna happen.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Yeah, PAD had to deal with Peter having a new secret ID as a teacher after he'd been outed, and then he brought back Deb Whitman in a way I really disliked, and even used Flash in a way I found pretty distasteful too. Probably he had to try to make lemonade out of some serious lemons, but all it did was turn me off more. But really, that whole Civil War era of Spidey sucked so bad, I almost want to give everyone that wasn't an editor a pass because I bet they're all embarrassed they were involved.
Any further thoughts on Death of Jean DeWolfe and the sequel story with Sin-Eater? In an era where the Green Goblin is back, the Jackal came back for the Clone Saga and it feels like just about anyone can come back, I really like that Sin-Eater is a Spider-Man enemy that is largely left alone (or forgotten but thats okay). He's a great, great character.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Any further thoughts on Death of Jean DeWolfe and the sequel story with Sin-Eater? In an era where the Green Goblin is back, the Jackal came back for the Clone Saga and it feels like just about anyone can come back, I really like that Sin-Eater is a Spider-Man enemy that is largely left alone (or forgotten but thats okay). He's a great, great character.
That's one (or two) story(s) that I'll have to revisit someday. The details are a little fuzzy, but I remember what a gritty, involving story it was. I was only familiar with Jean as a bit player among the supporting cast, but PAD really made me feel her loss.
It was one of the very first PAD Spidey stories and was very counter to the more light-hearted, breezy stories that would typify what he's known for. Don't get me wrong, PAD would write more Spidey stories with serious subject matter than just this one, but this was the first and only with that gritty, Frank Miller-ish feel to it. I know the Rich Bucler art (it was him, right?) on that arc was evocative of Miller's stuff as well. It was moving, suspenseful and dense.
I think it's great that PAD didn't feel like he had to continue writing Spidey under that darker lens. So many witers get so shoe-horned into writing characters a certain way, and with all the acclaim and attention PAD got from that story, you couldn't have blamed him if he gave us more of the same. But he didn't and found a way instead of distilling Peter's essence in a way that only a few writers have over the decades.
In any case "The Death of Jean DeWolffe" would definitely make my list of the best Spidey stories/arcs I've ever read, if I was ever so inclined to do so...but I won't!
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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I agree that PAD did a great job doing a real serious story but then having the confidence to pull back so the title didn't get stuck in a repetitive overly dark tone.
I remember getting to know Jean DeWolfe via her appearances in PPTSS (and possibly ASM, I'd have to check). But I didn't realize she first debuted in Marvel Team-Up in a really big way, as a major character in perhaps the best MTU story of them all, the Wraith Saga with Iron Man (and Dr. Strange). I only read that a few years ago to see what a big splash she made.
In the early 80's, it was still easy for Marvel readers to keep track of all the great NYC cops that were a part of the heroes lives. There was Turk, Captain Jean DeWolfe, Blackbird and D.A. Tower--all four appeared in a few Marvel titles. Nowadays there are so many walk-ons that it's hard for someone to leave a mark.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Picking up a little on the latest Spider-Man comics:
I'm not quite sure where I left off so I'll just do the last few. Spider-Man is in the midst of the Gauntlet, where many of his classic foes are being 'revamped' in the sense that they are getting a fresh coat of paint and being re-established as the real threats they should be perceived as. It's all actually been quite respectful thus far (as it should be), and IMO a big success.
First, the Rhino stories by Joe Kelly (there were two and not in a row) were nothing short of extraordinary. Hands-down, these are the two best Rhino stories ever written, and Joe Kelly reminds again why he's has risen to the top of the web-heads as a master of Spider-Man. He's giving out Grade A+ work right now and his Spider-Man stories are something to look forward to. His humor isn't forced and just works, his stories are poignant and really evoke a strong sense of emotion and he's created such a great character in Norah.
Up next has been the Zeb Wells & Chris Bachalo story 'Shed' in which the Lizard is taken to the next level--and this story is downright scary! Wells has been one of the weaker web-heads in IMO and Bachalo's art has never been my favorite, yet this story really is a fantastic job by both of them, and is full of tension and horror in a way the Lizard hasn't been since probably ASM #6. The Lizard has been one of my favorite Spider-Man villains and Curt Conners has been one of my favorite supporting cast members over the years; here, this is a big time game-changer.
Click Here For A SpoilerNo Lizard story will ever be the same. Billy Conners is killed by the Lizard.
It's a tough line to walk for a writer, but I think they pulled it off because of the strength of the writing. Absolutely, Curt Conners can't be the same after this--but I'm interested in what the web-heads come up with, since I've felt that way a few times in recent years (Flash, JJJ) and they've shown me just when you think a character's story is over, there is a whole other era about to begin.
Last, I've been enjoying the hell out of the Peter Parker series, which are the reprints of the online web-comic by Bob Gale and Pat Olliffe. Gale also was one of the 'weaker' Spider-Man writers IMO but not anymore--he's showing he has the chops to provide well-written, heavy characterization inspired stories that are both fun and interesting. Olliffe's art is terrific, as anyone who loved Untold Tales of Spider-Man will recall, and he's only gotten better with age. He knows how to draw Spidey in that quirky style reminiscent of Ditko, where his poses should look weird but yet look very fluid and pretty. I absolutely recommend Peter Parker to anyone who is looking for a fun Spider-Man story!
So, all in all, lately the Spider-Man stories have all been quite good!
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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