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I thought you might get a kick out of this. A friend asked me about ASM #143... did MJ say "Not" or "Hot"? My answer (bleeped-out profanity included) follows... (what memories, what memories)
Oh, I remember. Jameson got involved in another of his A**H*** schemes, it fell apart, he panicked, and fled the country! S***head. Next thing, they get the word, JJJ has been kidnapped. Serves the SONOFAB**** right. I'd have left him to rot, the B******. (Can you tell what I think of this guy yet?)
So Pete gets the dirty job-- again-- and has to deliver the ransom money in person. MJ sees him off at the airport. He asks the question. Not that one, the other one. She answers. "I call you Tiger cause you're NOT." They kiss. He leaves. She turns, walks away, and says... "...wow..."
It took almost 2 years, but the art by Andru, Giacoia & Hunt finally started to get the main characters "on model", which it had not been since Giacoia got on the book. Romita's inks were so good, I didn't even realize WONDER WOMAN's ex had taken over the pencils. (WW!! WW! All the world is waiting for you! Oh wait, that's the tv show...)
I'd forgotten I'd seen Jim Mooney ink Andru on MARVEL TEAM-UP #2. He inked Andru's 2nd issue of ASM. Not bad, but I suddenly noticed, hey, they changed pencillers. Then Giacoia got on there... and the art started to SUCK. BAD.
Romita, it turns out, had been PLOTTING THE BOOK. Not Lee, and later, NOT Conway. Romita. But my guess is, when Romita stopped inking, he stopped plotting. Because that's the exact point the writing started to SUCK. BAD. The fake Vulture. MJ miserable. The fake Green Goblin (Harry). Now, I will admit... the fake Mysterio story was kinda fun. I still get a kick out of the cover for part 2, when he lifts his "head" up and Spidey's web shoots right between it and his shoulders, and Spidey says, "NOBODY can do-- THAT!" Romita did the cover, of course. The last page of that story, in fact, was the 1st time JJJ looked "right" since Andru & Giacoiua took over. I wonder, was it realy Giacoia, or was his assistant Dave Hunt the one getting the faces right? (Or was Romita coming back to fix the faces, uncredited as usual?)
Legend has it fans wanted to lynch Conway for killing Gwen. NO! It was all Romita's idea!!!!! He claims he wanted to do a "tribute" to STEVE CANYON, but I suspect that once Stan was out of the way, he finally had his chance to ditch the blonde and hook Pete up with the girl who ALWAYS liked him no matter what, MJ. Criminal that Romita appears to have stopped plotting the book right after the double-murders of Gwen and Norman (not Bates). You pull a major stunt like that, you should have the decency to stick around afterwards. No doubt this inspired Jim Shooter, who later on, would pull awful, horrible stunts like this all the time-- and never once, not ever, ever once, did he stick around to clean up his own mess. (What a B******.)
So, almost 2 years go by, and things finally-- FINALLY-- start to look up for Pete & MJ. And the next issue... it all starts to go to hell again. AUGH! Soap-operas... who needs 'em?
Conway had Gwen's death forced on him. Conway later had the CLONE OF GWEN STACY forced on him too. Roy says Gerry left Marvel because they refused to give him the kind of contract Roy had. But "legend" long had it, he left because he got tired of people F****** over his work on Spider-Man, and him having to take the blame for it from fans.
Hey-- maybe it's a little of both?
Registered: Aug 2003
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When I first read the death of Gwen Stacy when I was 12, I was devastated--I really felt like *I* loved Gwen, because I related to Peter so much--I would reread Spider-Man comics from 1962-1992 constantly (all titles) over and over again. So I naturally had an interest in who made decisions for Gwen to ultimately die and everything I've ever read follows exactly what you say, that it was really Romita (and that Romita always preferred MJ to Gwen). Now, like I said, my 12 year old self will always make me prefer Gwen to MJ, but that's not fair to MJ; after all, Gwen's history with Peter was almost sacrosanct (until recently ) but MJ had to suffer through awful writers and editors for 40 more years!
You're comment on the Gwen Clone is fascinating though--I always assumed it was Conway who came up with the idea and never heard otherwise. I do know I've always loved the execution of the Jackal and his ultimate reveal as Professor Warren. The mystery of the Jackal makes this era a personal favorite of mine actually. Of course, after Professor Warren was revealed to be a super-villain, Marvel editorial really needed to make sure no one else Peter happened to know was somehow a super-villain; it was getting to be a little ridiculous.
Like I said, I have a fondness for this era. But I do recognize several stories were not up to snuff. Fake Vulture. Mindworm. Grizzly. Still, I love the subplots so much at this point that I enjoy rereading them a ton. And the goofiest story of all time--Doc Ock and Aunt May's wedding--is perhaps my most guilty pleasure comic book read of all time.
I remember hating Andru's art when I was a kid because it simply wasn't Ditko or Romita. In recent years I've come to grow fond of it, and appreciate his own unique style. I've never taken the time to really compare the inkers though...something to look forward to when I reread for the 9,000th time!
Jameson's quick exit had to do with another Spider Slayer scheme I think or the Scorpion busting out of prison or something. Naturally, the Cyclone got involved. There is no doubt by the end of this story, Joe Robertson must have realized Pete was Spider-Man. It had been hinted at for decades and I've always narrowed it down to here, in France, where Robbie truly realizes it (though he had suspicions prior).
The MJ/ Peter sequence is one of the best of their entire history. The kiss at the airport was truly moving. The very best thing Conway did as a writer was take MJ at the beginning of his run and turn her into a stronger, more mature character by the end of his run (while keeping her MJ). It really starts at the end of the Death of Gwen storyline, where MJ chooses to stay with Pete after he says some awful things to her. She grows over the next 20+ issues and here at the airport, here and Pete finally have a truly beautiful moment. Unfortunately, it was really Len Wein who took over after Gerry that kind of undid so much work that Gerry put into MJ. Len put in several scenes with MJ that reverted her to selfish brat again; Marv Wolfman then wrote her out a few years later and would only be when Roger Stern came on that someone brought MJ back to where Gerry had taken her.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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"MJ had to suffer through awful writers and editors for 40 more years"
Uh-huh. I first saw both Gwen & MJ in ASM #55, but neither made a dent on me. Later, I saw Gwen in a reprint of ASM #31, where she was awful-- a spoiled, selfish thing who was interested in Peter, but only on her own terms. I cannot imagine Ditko ever turning her into the nice girl she eventually became.
I then saw MJ in "Rhino on the Rampage", where she & Pete were having dinner with their aunts, they went into the lviing room and she started dancing, he heard the news, and SHE sugggested getting on his bike and going there to see what was going on in person. What a perfect girl for Peter!
I think Stan just had to "ruin" it with having Pete repeatedly thinking down thoughts about her, how it "bothered" him that she was "up" all the time (oh, would he have preferred somebody cranky and irritable?). The way I see it, Stan married a blonde. He wanted Pete to be with the blonde. Period. I never knew until quite recently that Romita wasn't co-plotting the book, he was PLOTTING it (with help from his wife & kids). But Stan wouldn't just "make" him plot the book-- or should I say, "let" him do it. Ever the "EDITOR!!", Stan always insisted on sticking in his own ideas, changing Romita's ideas, and getting in the last word. (My current boss is like that. In the last 2 months, he's repeatedly gotten in the way of me being able to do what he claims he wants-- be more "productive" on the job. He keeps letting his need to be "in control" get in the way.)
Supposedly, Stan okayed the death of Gwen story... then claimed he was out of town and knew nothing about it, to avoid blame. Then, not realzing the consequences of everyone's actions, apparently asked, "Well, can't you BRING HER BACK?" And this led to the Gwen clone story. (It also explains, to a lesser degree, why the early Lee-Romita SPIDER-MAN newspaper strip feratured a blonde in it... what was her name, Carol?)
"And the goofiest story of all time--Doc Ock and Aunt May's wedding--is perhaps my most guilty pleasure comic book read of all time."
You forgot to mention the atomic bomb blast!
"I remember hating Andru's art when I was a kid because it simply wasn't Ditko or Romita."
I think when Romita was on inks, I liked Andru-Romita lots more than Kane-Romita. But Romita was always too busy doing something else. There was ASM #125, 151... any other issues?
Jameson, if memory serves, was the one who HIRED the fake Mysterio. So when he was arrested (FOR WHAT, I find myself wondering?), he threatened to name his employer.
Does Joe know Pete is Spidey these days? I'm so completely out of the loop (and happy to be that way). Re-reading my comics up to 1973 (I hope to get back to them eventually), it's pretty clear George Stacy & Joe Robertson were slowly putting two and two together. Then Stacy got killed, and the whole tone of the series went into a tailspin it may never have really recovered from to this day.
"The MJ/ Peter sequence is one of the best of their entire history. The kiss at the airport was truly moving. The very best thing Conway did as a writer was take MJ at the beginning of his run and turn her into a stronger, more mature character by the end of his run (while keeping her MJ). It really starts at the end of the Death of Gwen storyline, where MJ chooses to stay with Pete after he says some awful things to her. She grows over the next 20+ issues and here at the airport, here and Pete finally have a truly beautiful moment."
YYYYYES!!!!! Exactly how I feel.
I would actually say that the version of MJ portrayed by Kirsten Dunst in the 3 films was based more on Gerry Conway's run than on the original Lee-Romita version. Not a completely bad thing, but Dunst in the film DICK was maybe more spot-on to the "real" MJ (heehee). (Okay, maybe that's going too far.)
"Unfortunately, it was really Len Wein who took over after Gerry that kind of undid so much work that Gerry put into MJ. Len put in several scenes with MJ that reverted her to selfish brat again"
It started right with Len's 2nd issue! His 1st was so good-- all those sub-plots, the cool Romita inks, the return of The Shocker with his outragoues "calling card" (as the cartoon Spidey once said, "Talk about a king-sized EGO!"). But Pete splits due to a crime, and the next day, MJ is acting like any "typical B**** girlfriend"-- when she was ALWAYS, to my eyes, anything but! WTF?
One thing I utterly despise, as part of my general dismissal of ALL of Tom DeFalco's writing in general (I once ranked him the WORST writer to ever work for Marvel-- though that was a long tme ago) was his absurd and out-of-left-field revelation that MJ "always" knew Pete was Spidey. B***S***!!! MJ was not "the girl who lived next door when I was growing up" in Pete's life, that was SUE STORM in REED RICHARDS' life!!! Didn't DeFalco even read the comics he was overseeing? (Oh wait, that was before he became EIC.) And of course, this got into the movies, so most people will always think it was that way... except for the part about her knowing his secret from the start.
"Marv Wolfman then wrote her out a few years later and would only be when Roger Stern came on that someone brought MJ back to where Gerry had taken her."
I admired Marv for trying to "move on" with some things when he took over, but I can NEVER forgive him for "finishing the job" his buddy Len started on MJ by having her walk out on Pete's life that way. Roger Stern, despite becoming my favorite Marvel writer in the mid-80's, also seemed to have some kind of bizarre thing going on in his attitude toward long-running romantic relationships. Think about this: Stern broke up Hank & Jan ("finishing" what Jim Shooter had started for no damn reason at all), he broke up Stephen & Clea (WHERE did that come from???), and he said openly in an interview that "You don't get back together with the EX", referring to Pete & MJ. He brought MJ back into the series, but had NO intention of her & Pete ever becoming a couple again. WTF?
My comics-shop guy Fred, when I told him this, joked, "Maybe he's gay?"
You really made me glad I posted that fun rant the other day! It amazes me that some of these stories stand out in my mind so clearly after decades. I do have very strong feelings about some of these things, so it's nice to be able to discuss them in a fun way, even if I often think the comics themselves weren't nearly as good as they could or should have been.
Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by profh0011: "MJ had to suffer through awful writers and editors for 40 more years"
Uh-huh. I first saw both Gwen & MJ in ASM #55, but neither made a dent on me. Later, I saw Gwen in a reprint of ASM #31, where she was awful-- a spoiled, selfish thing who was interested in Peter, but only on her own terms. I cannot imagine Ditko ever turning her into the nice girl she eventually became.
I then saw MJ in "Rhino on the Rampage", where she & Pete were having dinner with their aunts, they went into the lviing room and she started dancing, he heard the news, and SHE sugggested getting on his bike and going there to see what was going on in person. What a perfect girl for Peter!
I think Stan just had to "ruin" it with having Pete repeatedly thinking down thoughts about her, how it "bothered" him that she was "up" all the time (oh, would he have preferred somebody cranky and irritable?). The way I see it, Stan married a blonde. He wanted Pete to be with the blonde. Period. I never knew until quite recently that Romita wasn't co-plotting the book, he was PLOTTING it (with help from his wife & kids). But Stan wouldn't just "make" him plot the book-- or should I say, "let" him do it. Ever the "EDITOR!!", Stan always insisted on sticking in his own ideas, changing Romita's ideas, and getting in the last word. (My current boss is like that. In the last 2 months, he's repeatedly gotten in the way of me being able to do what he claims he wants-- be more "productive" on the job. He keeps letting his need to be "in control" get in the way.)
Supposedly, Stan okayed the death of Gwen story... then claimed he was out of town and knew nothing about it, to avoid blame. Then, not realzing the consequences of everyone's actions, apparently asked, "Well, can't you BRING HER BACK?" And this led to the Gwen clone story. (It also explains, to a lesser degree, why the early Lee-Romita SPIDER-MAN newspaper strip feratured a blonde in it... what was her name, Carol?)
Though Romita’s heavy involvement in ASM shows incredibly well, its amazing to see just how vital he was in the direction of the series, to the point where he was moreso than Stan, as you say. I suspect JR was also the heavy influence in “softening up” Jonah Jameson—something I don’t mind actually and enjoy quite a bit. JJJ is my favorite all-time supporting character in that he adds a layer to Spider-Man that no other series has: an adversary that is not a villain. By the time Gil Kane had had come on, Jonah was doing things like supporting civil rights and standing up against citywide video surveillance—things Stan obviously would have him doing but I wonder if that was JR as well?
The MJ Rhino story is the 3-parter where she is introduced and its one of my favorites of all time. The Ditko run is what I consider the best of Spidey, but sometimes when I reread, I start at the very best Spider-Man story of them all (#31-33, also perhaps the greatest comic book storyline of all time IMO), and then go from there. The reason is because the transition from Ditko to Romita changes Spidey’s world so nicely—when I was a kid, it made me desperately want to go to college and move out and have a roommate, have girlfriends, go to parties and go get coffee with my friends. Gwen softens up and becomes Pete’s love interest, MJ is introduced, Harry and Pete become friends, etc. Pete even has a great sequence with Betty Brant in those issues where the two kind of reach some closure. Robbie is introduced (a huge fave of mine), Captain Stacy right after (or before?), John Jameson is a player and Fred Foswell’s story reaches a tragic and heroic end. Plus Need Leeds, Professor Warren and of course, Flash—the series was just firing on all cylinders!
Getting back to my point, the MJ introduction was just wild. I love when Spidey rescues her and she says: “Spidey, you’re a real swinger under that mask, aren’t you?” or something. How could you not want MJ to be around you? One of the things I liked later was that after two dozen issues of an icy relationship between Gwen and MJ, the two become close friends.
quote:Originally posted by profh0011: Does Joe know Pete is Spidey these days? I'm so completely out of the loop (and happy to be that way). Re-reading my comics up to 1973 (I hope to get back to them eventually), it's pretty clear George Stacy & Joe Robertson were slowly putting two and two together. Then Stacy got killed, and the whole tone of the series went into a tailspin it may never have really recovered from to this day.
I believe its back to how it was in the late 60’s-early 90’s, in which we the readers think Joe knows but no one really knows for sure if he does. At least, I hope it is. I love that particular long running subplot. It begins with John Jameson and Captain Stacy right around the time John Jameson was reintroduced for a third time and almost killed by Doc Ock (and then saved by Spidey again), and the two “exchange some thoughts on Spider-Man”. At this time, Stan & Romita were introducing Joe Robertson into the series and so when John Jameson exited to handle ‘government business’, Robbie kind of stepped right into that subplot so Capt. Stacy and Robbie were the ones discussing it. Considering Capt. Stacy knew Pete was Spidey when he died, one can logically presume Robbie did too—or if not by #90 when Captain Stacy died, certainly by the Paris issues we mentioned above (with a number of odd coincidences in the 50 issues in between for Spidey and Pete).
Speaking of Captain Stacy, he was also a huge favorite of mine. A really terrific character who was akin to “the conscious of the series” as I heard him described a few years ago. Sometimes when I review other series, I look for characters who kind of fill that role. I loved that he would often provide Peter with the alibi or excuse to throw Gwen—his own Daughter!—off the trail of knowing Pete was Spider-Man. The readers were always left wondering if he really knew or not, though of course its obvious in hindsight he did.
Captain Stacy, Norman Osborn and Jonah represented the ‘upper crust’ NYC elite in the series and each one was in different areas of the moral spectrum. Captain Stacy was the morally good one and Jonah the one who only cared about money and fame. Meanwhile, Norman—who at this time had been “cured” and forgotten about his Green Goblin days—was somewhere in the middle. A good man, but not quite as kind-hearted as Captain Stacy.
quote:Originally posted by profh0011: "The MJ/ Peter sequence is one of the best of their entire history. The kiss at the airport was truly moving. The very best thing Conway did as a writer was take MJ at the beginning of his run and turn her into a stronger, more mature character by the end of his run (while keeping her MJ). It really starts at the end of the Death of Gwen storyline, where MJ chooses to stay with Pete after he says some awful things to her. She grows over the next 20+ issues and here at the airport, here and Pete finally have a truly beautiful moment."
YYYYYES!!!!! Exactly how I feel.
I would actually say that the version of MJ portrayed by Kirsten Dunst in the 3 films was based more on Gerry Conway's run than on the original Lee-Romita version. Not a completely bad thing, but Dunst in the film DICK was maybe more spot-on to the "real" MJ (heehee). (Okay, maybe that's going too far.)
"Unfortunately, it was really Len Wein who took over after Gerry that kind of undid so much work that Gerry put into MJ. Len put in several scenes with MJ that reverted her to selfish brat again"
It started right with Len's 2nd issue! His 1st was so good-- all those sub-plots, the cool Romita inks, the return of The Shocker with his outragoues "calling card" (as the cartoon Spidey once said, "Talk about a king-sized EGO!"). But Pete splits due to a crime, and the next day, MJ is acting like any "typical B**** girlfriend"-- when she was ALWAYS, to my eyes, anything but! WTF?
One thing I utterly despise, as part of my general dismissal of ALL of Tom DeFalco's writing in general (I once ranked him the WORST writer to ever work for Marvel-- though that was a long tme ago) was his absurd and out-of-left-field revelation that MJ "always" knew Pete was Spidey. B***S***!!! MJ was not "the girl who lived next door when I was growing up" in Pete's life, that was SUE STORM in REED RICHARDS' life!!! Didn't DeFalco even read the comics he was overseeing? (Oh wait, that was before he became EIC.) And of course, this got into the movies, so most people will always think it was that way... except for the part about her knowing his secret from the start.
"Marv Wolfman then wrote her out a few years later and would only be when Roger Stern came on that someone brought MJ back to where Gerry had taken her."
I admired Marv for trying to "move on" with some things when he took over, but I can NEVER forgive him for "finishing the job" his buddy Len started on MJ by having her walk out on Pete's life that way. Roger Stern, despite becoming my favorite Marvel writer in the mid-80's, also seemed to have some kind of bizarre thing going on in his attitude toward long-running romantic relationships. Think about this: Stern broke up Hank & Jan ("finishing" what Jim Shooter had started for no damn reason at all), he broke up Stephen & Clea (WHERE did that come from???), and he said openly in an interview that "You don't get back together with the EX", referring to Pete & MJ. He brought MJ back into the series, but had NO intention of her & Pete ever becoming a couple again. WTF?
I read a great article a few years back on www.spideykicksbutt.com, which is a great website with some heavy opinions; they are very strong but they are heavily backed up by continuity so they’re a great read. Anyway, the author said he thought Marv having her leave the series at that time was a great move in that it was a great ‘cooling off period’ for MJ and the readers. I concur because of (A) the damage done by Len Wein, (B) that damage implied that Peter had never really had a chance to grieve for Gwen even though as you and I both agree, that is exactly what Gerry Conway had him do and (C) all those Marvel Team-Up appearances of MJ kind of made her actually seem more of a flatter character than she was because the series was in its nature limiting in any character development for her there. In the long run, this kind of worked. Of course, having her turn down Pete’s proposal was not really the best way to go about it.
I also liked Kirsten Dunst’s job as MJ in the films and agree, its totally the Conway MJ going on there. The films capture the “transtionary MJ’ very well, from her less mature self to a person of some real substance and depth.
Interesting notion on Roger Stern, I’ve never noticed it before. He does have a tendency to move characters beyond the classic pairings. I can see how that fits into what he’s always trying to do: respect the past and acknowledge it but keep things moving forward.
Also—yeah, that Shocker story by Len was a great start in the first issue! I also loved his ‘calling card’. The cover of the issue didn’t exactly try to hard to hide his identity either.
quote:Originally posted by profh0011: You really made me glad I posted that fun rant the other day! It amazes me that some of these stories stand out in my mind so clearly after decades. I do have very strong feelings about some of these things, so it's nice to be able to discuss them in a fun way, even if I often think the comics themselves weren't nearly as good as they could or should have been.
I was glad to read it! As you know, I can talk about Spider-Man all day long, especially the specifics of various eras, characters and storylines. I really love hearing your opinions on various comic book stories—particularly Spider-Man and the Silver Age Marvels. I have a pretty positive opinion of even the lesser quality eras of Spider-Man’s history (the last 10 years being perhaps the exception to that), but I take a lot of joy in putting a critical eye to some of the bungles of the eras that I love. You provide a lot of things that make me notice things I never have after dozens of rereads: inkers and behind the scenes editorial decisions chief among them!
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Y'know, this was the first time I've ever heard that Robbie apparently knows that Peter's Spidey! Sadly, I haven't read many of the Spidey stories from the eras in which Captain Stacy was alive and when Robbie was introduced. But I don't ever remember reading an issue of Spidey and wondering if Robbie knew who Spidey is. Seems like those stories Conway wrote later on with Robbie and Tombstone would've been a natural place for that to pop up again, but I don't ever remember anything, subtly or not, hinting that Robbie knew about Peter.
Huh!
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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Reading that era, I always got the impression that Robbie had a pretty good idea that Peter was Spidey...but never looked for that damning bit of evidence so he would not feel even remotely obligated to do anything with the information.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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I'm working on a tedious & time-consuming "restoration" job for the SA Marvel site, so I appreciate taking a break here...
"I suspect JR was also the heavy influence in “softening up” Jonah Jameson—something I don’t mind actually and enjoy quite a bit."
I dunno... MY favorite version of JJJ is the 1967 Grantray-Lawrence cartoons, where he is treatred as "comic relief". When I re-read the 60's run recently, I felt ASM #1 may have been the WORST issue in the series-- and JJJ was nothing less than a MONSTER! There was NO CALL for him to have done what he did in that first issue regarding Spider-Man. Things got better issue by issue, though. As Ditko's run went on, we did see some depth to Jameson, but he worked best when someone-- Spidey or other-- made a total jackass of him (well, it was mostly JJJ doing it to himself).
By comparison, he seemed to me to be a flatter, 1-dimensional character during the Romita run. His hatred of Spidey became downright pathological. He would have outbursts against Spidey even if Spidey was in the middle of saving someone's life-- including his! The worst instance, for me, was when Spidey appeared on a talk show, and JJJ set it up with ELECTRO (who started his career ROBBING Jameson's safe, for God's sake!!!), and it caused a riot, loads of property damage, and a lot of people could have gotten seriously hurt or killed. To me, it made no sense that JJJ was able to just walk away from that. CRIMINAL charges should have been pressed, a scandal should have ensued, the rep of his newspaper tarnished. THAT would have made an interesting story... but it never happened!
It does seem that it was during Kane's run that, while Pete's life went TO HELL, that somehow, Jameson started standing up for things, like when he defended Joe against a bigot. It's a strange contraditiction in terms, when I think about it. (Then again, maybe after the Electro incident he started seeing a shrink? He sure as hell needed one! Dangerous criminal lunatic!!)
Pencillers tended to at least co-plot stories back then, and I've heard that apparently Kane was contributing, though not as much as Romita did for Stan. (Stan's contributions during Romita's run seem to consist of suggesting villains, telling John to hook Pete up with Gwen, make Gwen prettier, make MJ's hair uglier, etc.)
When Romita took over from Ditko, it seems to me that Gwen, Harry & Flash all "softened" a bit too much, too fast. it didn't feel natural. If you started reading around the Rhino story, you wouldn't notice, but readling all the issues in sequence, it felt like something was missing.
I loved the dynamic in "IN THE HANDS OF THE HUNTER", when they had the party for Flash's going into the army. Gwen & MJ were almost like Veronica & Betty, only not as polite. The harsher, more self-centered Gwen seemed a better match for Harry, who also came from a well-to-do family.
If I recall rightly, Stacy was introduced in the issues when Spidey had AMNESIA, and Gwen was startting to show she really cared about Pete, who was missing.
“Spidey, you’re a real swinger under that mask, aren’t you?”
One of my favorite bits is in the 2nd Kingpin story, with the nightclub (Gloom Room A Go Go), where MJ walks in during a fight, some goon tries to use her as a shield, Spidey clobbers the guy, swings off with her holding on tight. After he puts her down and takes off, she asks, "Do you have any brothers?" (I asked a girl I really liked just a few months ago, "Got any friends or sisters like you?" --she was married.)
"I loved that he would often provide Peter with the alibi or excuse to throw Gwen—his own Daughter!—off the trail of knowing Pete was Spider-Man. The readers were always left wondering if he really knew or not, though of course its obvious in hindsight he did."
They REALLY never should have killed him. After Uncle Ben, and ASM #31-33, that should have been enough of that sort of thing.
"certainly by the Paris issues we mentioned above"
Never mind the Cyclone story... remember the Gil Kane story where Pete went to London to take pics (and see Gwen)? After he went into action as Spidey, he realized he couldn't see Gwen, because she might put two and two together. But, WHAT ABOUT JOE? Pete gave Joe pics OF Spidey! Didn't it even occur to him that a newspaper man might put the same two and two together? GEEZ!
"Meanwhile, Norman—who at this time had been “cured” and forgotten about his Green Goblin days—was somewhere in the middle. A good man, but not quite as kind-hearted as Captain Stacy."
It's only the last couple years, after re-reading these things over again, that I realized something. When Stan & Johnny told the Green Goblin's origin, they were doing a RETREAD of Doc ock's origin! Noble scientist, lab accident, guy goes insane, becomes a criminal... The thing is, I never got that vibe at all from Ditko's portrayal of the Goblin. But on the other hand, Stan seemed to completely forget Ock's origin. Once he went mad, he became a power-mad criminal bent on building a criminal gang, and he also became (in my view) the MOST DANGEROUS of all of Spidey's enemies. Something tells me Stan forgot Ock's origin when he told the Goblin's... and he spent an awful lot of time afterwards trying to build up the Goblin as so extrememly dangerous-- and yet, we were supposed to sympathize with him. Sheesh.
It may have been the 2nd movie that also pointed this up for me. Ock WAS a very sympathetic character before his accident (as opposed to the comic, where he was a 1-dimensional cipher with no personality-- that accident actually gave him a personality he never had before!). In the film, although they played Ock up as extrememly dangerous, you still felt sympathy for him at the end.
By comparison, I never WANTED to feel sympathy for Osborn in the comics. I may be getting confused here, but it seems to me Osborn was somewhat shady to begin with... the accident just pushed him to lengths he might not otherwise. It was the AMNESIA that "cured" him, made him a nicer person than he ever had been, even before he became a super-villain. And yet, Stan seemed to forget even this, and in sequels kept trying to paint Osborn as deserving sympathy. I can't help but wish he'd died the way he did in the film... having tried, but FAILED to kill Pete's girlfriend. After such a build-up, for years and years, they should have had Pete & Gwen get married. then MJ would have had something to be heartbroken about. (I could see MJ dumping Harry after a marriage proposal.. after all, he was just her "rebound" guy. Sad for him, but true.)
"I also loved his ‘calling card’. The cover of the issue didn’t exactly try to hard to hide his identity either."
The 2nd half of that 2-parter was such a let-down! MJ's personality changed between issues, Romita didn't ink, and after "writing his name in lights", I don't even remember what The Shocker did next, but he got beaten way too fast.
Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Officer Taylor: Y'know, this was the first time I've ever heard that Robbie apparently knows that Peter's Spidey! Sadly, I haven't read many of the Spidey stories from the eras in which Captain Stacy was alive and when Robbie was introduced. But I don't ever remember reading an issue of Spidey and wondering if Robbie knew who Spidey is. Seems like those stories Conway wrote later on with Robbie and Tombstone would've been a natural place for that to pop up again, but I don't ever remember anything, subtly or not, hinting that Robbie knew about Peter.
Huh!
To be fair to you then Lardy, the notion that Robbie knew Peter was Spidey was something that was ongoing and prominent at the close of the Silver Age and in the early-mid 1970’s; it would pop-up again throughout Spidey history but a lot of the time IMO, it was very implied and kind of relied on the idea that the reader might already have that suspicion in their head. In other words, there is a case to be made that Joe does not know Peter is Spidey, and anyone who did not read those Silver & Bronze Age issues might automatically think so.
During the end of the Silver Age, as I said above, there was a long-running subplot where Robbie and Captain Stacy would have talks about Spidey, comparing notes. It was certainly implied they were close to guessing who Spidey was and we soon learned Captain Stacy indeed knew. Prof points out an obvious (and pretty groovy) story in which Peter and Spidey are both in London looking for Gwen and Robbie knows—he reminded me that in that issue and the following issue Peter makes some thoughts where he basically says “Oh well, if Robbie didn’t know before, he certainly has some suspicions!”. The aforementioned Paris/Cyclone story further confirms this, though Conway had peppered his run with some exchanges where Jonah exclaims he can’t believe Parker can get pics of Spidey no one else can and Robbie makes a comment that is like a casual wink to the reader that he has other suspicions.
The next major milestone for Robbie IMO was what I consider the greatest scene in the character’s history, which occurred sometime during Len Wein’s run (although there is a chance it was at the beginning of Marv’s—I can never remember which issue). In this scene, a down and out Spidey comes to Joe for help and hides out in his car. After scaring Joe, Joe yells at him for doing that and actually puts Spidey in his place. He then gives him some great advice and even tells him a story about how he and his wife lost their second son when the boy was a baby. It’s a moving, touching scene and it reinvigorates Peter. This might actually occur in the Bart Hamilton / Green Goblin III story at the climax of Len’s run. The scene basically firmly establishes Robbie as the heir of Captain Stacy as conscience of the series and guiding force for Pete (a role even Aunt May took on more during Ditko’s run). It also is important because it shows how critical Robbie is to Spider-Man at this point; even though not one bit of dialogue reference Robbie possibly knowing who Spidey is, the implication that he does is felt throughout.
Hereafter, I can’t recall if any specific references are made during Marv’s run, the Denny O’Neil transition issues, Roger Stern’s issues and for a few years. I, personally, always had it in mind whenever Robbie interacted with Pete or Spidey. I suspect some of the writers did too (certainly Marv, who was friends with Len and Gerry).
I’ll note that during Kraven’s Last Hunt, MJ suspects that Robbie suspects Pete is Spidey but doesn’t follow through and ask him about it. That’s an obvious nod to the reader’s suspicions.
Somewhere along the way, that entire bit became a less central and almost never mentioned facet of the mythos. I agree that Gerry could really have brought that back to the forefront during those Tombstone issues (BTW, I love those issues and Tombstone in general and they are a high point of the 80’s for me). It would have made a ton of sense. But I sure remember a huge friendliness, or at least an amount of familiarity Robbie showed Spidey during that era that could be interpreted as him believing it was Peter and feeling that way. But yeah, too bad Conway never followed up on that thread! The obvious reason why though is right there: MJ knew at this point Pete was Spider-Man. So what would make Robbie knowing so special? Not all that much really. So there is your answer right there as to why it became a much less important thing.
In current Spidey continuity, I think not only does Robbie suspect, but Ben Urich not only suspects but might actually know.
PS – give me your thoughts on those Tombstone issues sometime! Tombstone is my absolute favorite post-Stern era villain Spidey has ever had (possibly only Shriek and Cardiac come close). When I was 12 years old, Tombstone scared the hell out of me!
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by profh0011: "I suspect JR was also the heavy influence in “softening up” Jonah Jameson—something I don’t mind actually and enjoy quite a bit."
I dunno... MY favorite version of JJJ is the 1967 Grantray-Lawrence cartoons, where he is treatred as "comic relief". When I re-read the 60's run recently, I felt ASM #1 may have been the WORST issue in the series-- and JJJ was nothing less than a MONSTER! There was NO CALL for him to have done what he did in that first issue regarding Spider-Man. Things got better issue by issue, though. As Ditko's run went on, we did see some depth to Jameson, but he worked best when someone-- Spidey or other-- made a total jackass of him (well, it was mostly JJJ doing it to himself).
By comparison, he seemed to me to be a flatter, 1-dimensional character during the Romita run. His hatred of Spidey became downright pathological. He would have outbursts against Spidey even if Spidey was in the middle of saving someone's life-- including his! The worst instance, for me, was when Spidey appeared on a talk show, and JJJ set it up with ELECTRO (who started his career ROBBING Jameson's safe, for God's sake!!!), and it caused a riot, loads of property damage, and a lot of people could have gotten seriously hurt or killed. To me, it made no sense that JJJ was able to just walk away from that. CRIMINAL charges should have been pressed, a scandal should have ensued, the rep of his newspaper tarnished. THAT would have made an interesting story... but it never happened!
It does seem that it was during Kane's run that, while Pete's life went TO HELL, that somehow, Jameson started standing up for things, like when he defended Joe against a bigot. It's a strange contraditiction in terms, when I think about it. (Then again, maybe after the Electro incident he started seeing a shrink? He sure as hell needed one! Dangerous criminal lunatic!!).
There are so many great JJJ scenes over Spidey’s history that its hard to pinpoint a few. Like I said, I love the gradual shift of his character over the decades, but I also like how it was very slow and gradual. For instance, I love during the Tablet Saga where Spidey basically almost gives JJJ a heart attack. I also love how JJJ totally is over the top in proclaiming the Prowler threw Peter Parker out the window.
I loved when he was an antagonist for Spidey in that he made his life harder, but I also loved him being played for laughs too—like proclaiming he was like a father to Peter, when he was trying to pay him peanuts for great photos. Just a great, great character. From what I know of Ditko, Ditko put him in there because he knew and hated people like that in real life—people who only cared about wealth and fame and were full of greed. But Romita and Stan softened him up and when the real life 1960’s culture influenced Marvel more and more, JJJ emerged (with Robbie) as a mouthpiece for liberal progressive forces within the comic. This dynamic helped make Jonah a character with a lot of depth, something Marv, Roger Stern and others played with for years.
He’s currently back in the series as Mayor of NYC and I’m thrilled about it. While at first I thought the Mayor of NYC thing was needlessly over the top, I’m actually enjoying its execution. What I *hated* was the decade of almost no Jonah at all in the series.
quote:Originally posted by profh0011: When Romita took over from Ditko, it seems to me that Gwen, Harry & Flash all "softened" a bit too much, too fast. it didn't feel natural. If you started reading around the Rhino story, you wouldn't notice, but readling all the issues in sequence, it felt like something was missing.
I loved the dynamic in "IN THE HANDS OF THE HUNTER", when they had the party for Flash's going into the army. Gwen & MJ were almost like Veronica & Betty, only not as polite. The harsher, more self-centered Gwen seemed a better match for Harry, who also came from a well-to-do family.
I also love that story! That is the story above all other that made the idea of “throwing a party” and “getting coffee with your friends” so appealing to me when I was still young enough to barely scrape together $5.00. Similar to JJJ, this era also gave Flash a great dash of depth: he remained quite a jerk to Peter, but here he was going off to serve his country in Viet Nam. Ditko and Stan’s run always had him as Spidey’s biggest fan, but this took it to the next level in terms of getting readers to feel something other than animosity for him. Whenever he’d come home from the War, that dynamic would always be there and he was a great character to have around. Peter shaking his hand and wishing him luck before he leaves is a big moment for both character in terms of maturing from the beginning of the series. It’s another example of the growth and maturity of the series during this era I like.
I do agree somewhat with you that Gwen, Harry and Flash’s turnaround is rather quick. But then again, High School kids going to College do experience quick shifts in temperament so its not too far fetched. But more than anything it reflects the shift in art from Ditko’s quirky and often purposely ugly style to Romita’s softer, more beautiful style. Ditko will always be my #1 Spidey artist, but Romita is a close #2. Their styles couldn’t be more different but both are essential to understanding the history and character of Spider-Man.
quote:Originally posted by profh0011: If I recall rightly, Stacy was introduced in the issues when Spidey had AMNESIA, and Gwen was startting to show she really cared about Pete, who was missing.
Good memory, you’re exactly right! Captain Stacy first appears in the police station with John Jameson IIRC, and then we see him with Gwen. Soon after, the Kingpin story which mirrored “The Manchurian Candidate” places Captain Stacy front and center as a major supporting character.
During this time, Doc Ock and Kingpin had three terrific stories each (in what I call the second half of Spidey’s Silver Age, in other words the Romita years). The two would go back and forth with 3-4 issue arcs every 8-10 issues. In my Reviews earlier in this thread—which I admit are a little embarrassing to me as I was still kind of cutting my teeth in posting—I get into the transition of Spidey’s major villains over the years, and how at the close of Romita’s run, Spidey emerged with really no major arch-nemesis anymore. What I mean is Doc Ock went from killing Captain Stacy to having a grudge with Hammerhead (and soon ‘dying’); Green Goblin soon died and Kingpin never recovered from his battle with his son, only showing back up in Captain America of all places. So this was the perfect time for the Jackal to come in and take the place as Spidey’s new arch-nemesis for a brief period.
^For the record, IMO Spidey’s greatest nemesis will always be Doc Ock. When the Goblin was dead, it kept a certain aura around him to make sure he kept tied for the top spot with him; now that he’s been back for a long time, he’s lost his luster a bit. Doc Ock, like MJ, has suffered under 50 years of editors and writers giving him bad stories, so its unfortunate.
quote:Originally posted by profh0011: "Meanwhile, Norman—who at this time had been “cured” and forgotten about his Green Goblin days—was somewhere in the middle. A good man, but not quite as kind-hearted as Captain Stacy."
It's only the last couple years, after re-reading these things over again, that I realized something. When Stan & Johnny told the Green Goblin's origin, they were doing a RETREAD of Doc ock's origin! Noble scientist, lab accident, guy goes insane, becomes a criminal... The thing is, I never got that vibe at all from Ditko's portrayal of the Goblin. But on the other hand, Stan seemed to completely forget Ock's origin. Once he went mad, he became a power-mad criminal bent on building a criminal gang, and he also became (in my view) the MOST DANGEROUS of all of Spidey's enemies. Something tells me Stan forgot Ock's origin when he told the Goblin's... and he spent an awful lot of time afterwards trying to build up the Goblin as so extrememly dangerous-- and yet, we were supposed to sympathize with him. Sheesh.
It may have been the 2nd movie that also pointed this up for me. Ock WAS a very sympathetic character before his accident (as opposed to the comic, where he was a 1-dimensional cipher with no personality-- that accident actually gave him a personality he never had before!). In the film, although they played Ock up as extrememly dangerous, you still felt sympathy for him at the end.
By comparison, I never WANTED to feel sympathy for Osborn in the comics. I may be getting confused here, but it seems to me Osborn was somewhat shady to begin with... the accident just pushed him to lengths he might not otherwise. It was the AMNESIA that "cured" him, made him a nicer person than he ever had been, even before he became a super-villain. And yet, Stan seemed to forget even this, and in sequels kept trying to paint Osborn as deserving sympathy. I can't help but wish he'd died the way he did in the film... having tried, but FAILED to kill Pete's girlfriend. After such a build-up, for years and years, they should have had Pete & Gwen get married. then MJ would have had something to be heartbroken about. (I could see MJ dumping Harry after a marriage proposal.. after all, he was just her "rebound" guy. Sad for him, but true.)
Yeah, Norman’s personality shift is big once he loses the amnesia. This is because of two factors (I have no proof of course ): (A) Ditko left and Norman the jerk was a quintessential Ditko character if there ever was one and (B) Stan didn’t care if he changed a character’s personality in a huge way if it fit the story. So Norman certainly was a bit of an awful person with bad intentions before he became the Green Goblin (which enhanced those qualities) and then once the amnesia hit—he was the nicest guy you’d ever want to meet.
The subplot where Norman begins recalling his memories which ran for a long series of issues was one that totally engrossed me and still does to this day. I’m talking about the first time around, which (stupidly IMO) continued the Spectacular Spider-Man comic book special #2—something I never even got to read until I was like 25! So I never got to see how that subplot ended. They then of course retread this during the 90’s for the second Green Goblin return story (the Harry Osborn drug issues). During that second return, Norman really lets loose as a jerk, specifically towards Randy Robertson; that bit of dialogue has serious undertones of prejudice against class & race.
You’re also right that GG’s origin is a bit of a copy of Doc Ock’s. It was a classic Stan super-villain origin. I’m trying to recall other times he used the same thing. This is basically the origin of the Jackal as well, though rather than a tragic lab experiment, it’s a psychological breakdown—an origin much more fitting for the 1970’s and Gerry Conway, though similar to the classic trope.
I agree that Doc Ock in the second Spider-Man movie was terrific—the actor does a great job at making him likeable and a good man, and really fills the character out in a way ASM #3 never did. I kind of want the movie origin to be fitted onto Doc Ock in the comics (and actually I think it has been) since Norman the jerk is a firm part of continuity now.
Wrapping up, I’m thrilled at the back and forth in this thread! I know my posts are gigantic and hope no one minds; I like getting into the long time trends of Spidey-history while at the same time really getting into the details and obscure bits!
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Just finished several HOURS fixing links and re-formatting text files for the SA Marvel site... I need a break.
"Ben Urich not only suspects but might actually "know.""
EHHH!! Urich is a DD character, he shouldn't be part of Spidey's cast & problems.
"From what I know of Ditko, Ditko put him in there because he knew and hated people like that in real life—people who only cared about wealth and fame and were full of greed."
I sometimes think JJJ & Peter were Ditko's fictional versions of Stan Lee & Steve Ditko.
"For the record, IMO Spidey’s greatest nemesis will always be Doc Ock."
It has bugged me for decades that The Goblin got built up into something much bigger than he deserved to be, and in the general public, more since the 1st movie perhaps than even before, he's Spidey's "arch enemy". Also because he bears a slight resemblance to The Joker, another "crazy" looking guy who at times was hard to take serious. (On the BATMAN tv show, there was no doubt that Frank Gorshin's Riddler WAS Adam West's arch-enemy! Nobody else came across that "dangerous".)
In the '67 cartoons, there was no doubt Ock was Spidey's most dangerous foe. (even though Dr. Noah Boddy claimed HE was Spider-Man's "arch-enemy"-- what was that about a king-sized ego??) Not only was Ock in the 1st episode, he radiated menace, and was willing to destroy a large section of New York City, JUST to prove a point! In his return, during a fight, he threatened to "drop the Nullifier on the city." Spidey thinks, "He's JUST the guy to DO it!" (In the cartoon, it wasn't an electronic device that would short out other devices, it was an anti-missile MISSILE.)
In the comic, Ock went from being 1-dimensional to 2 after his accident. In the movie, he went from 3-dimensional to 2 after his accident. Before, so different, but after, EXACTLY like the comics version (especially Romita's REALLY dangerous depiction of him).
What cracked me up was having never seen actor Alfred Molina before SPIDER-MAN 2, and the very day after I saw it, he appeared on tv as Hercule Poirot in a remake of MURDER ON THE ORIENT EXPRESS. (That had to have been deliberate on the part of the network scheduling.)
Ock could have been looked at as a tragic figure, as he was a decent person "before" (presumably), but as I said, once he became a super-villain, for the entirety of the 60's and 70's, nobody EVER ONCE "looked back"! That was all given over to Norman Osborn, who, in the Lee-Romita ORIGIN story, was shown to be a RAT before his accident. (I don't actually recall Norman much in the Ditko era. Wasn't he introduced only a couple of issues before Steve left?)
So Ock never got sympathy back then, because Stan apparently FORGOT all about his origin, and didn't realize he was doing with Norman what he should have been doing for Ock. (Maybe.)
To me, "Doc Ock" was a diabolical MONSTER. I don't recall if he ever crossed paths with The Green Goblin in the comics, but if he did, he would have CRUSHED him like an insect... or something. "Now-- where was I before I was so rudely interrupted?"
I have never yet read SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN #2 in its entirety. In the early 70's, it was reprinted in a GIANT, but they cut a LOT OF PAGES out of it!
Registered: Aug 2003
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I can see we're in total agreement about Ock. And yes, he would have CRUSHED the Green Goblin had they met.
Putting aside the incredible #11 and #12, and the legendary and glorious #31-33, Doc Ock also reminded us why he was the top dog in the Sinister Six Annual, and then had (like I mentioned before) three terrific stories post-Ditko. There was a real sense that with Doc Ock, Spidey could really lose at anytime. Not many other of his enemies gave that sense of danger.
You reminded me of the actor's name--Alfred Molina! IMO the greatest super-villain ever on screen, perhaps only competing would be Ian McKellan's Magneto (the latest Batman villains come close but not quite on this level).
Another Spider-villain who had the same sort of danger to him was the Lizard, particularly in the Silver Age. #6 was a classic and one of my favorites if for no other reason than seeing Ditko draw the Lizard and other reptiles. But I also really loved the Romita story in #44-45, which had a brilliant ending to it that MUST have been stolen from a 50's B-movie. It also had Spidey put his arm in a sling, which has been copied dozens of times in the decades sense. Naturally Pete blames it on a motorcycle accident and what made him seem cool suddenly makes him seem less so. Poor Peter.
That story also had Aunt May going off to Florida for awhile, showing it was an era where Aunt May still did things. The addition of MJ to the series was so good its easy to sometimes recall that it also meant Aunt Anna became a much bigger player in the series than before as she had more reason to be on screen. That meant Aunt May wasn't so helpless and lonely as she was under Ditko. It also meant May and Anna could show up together and they provided some welcome tension relief and humorous exchanges with Peter and the gang. All things that helped make this era so spectacular!
On another note, given I do review current Spider-Man comics, I have to say the reprinting of the online Bob Gale stories in "Peter Parker", have been terrific! Bob Gale was who I considered the weakest of the Spidey writers BND (aka the 'webheads'), but not anymore! This is a really great series full of fun and real spunk. I highly recommend this to anyone looking for a fun Spidey series, and it's also great for younger readers.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: PS – give me your thoughts on those Tombstone issues sometime! Tombstone is my absolute favorite post-Stern era villain Spidey has ever had (possibly only Shriek and Cardiac come close). When I was 12 years old, Tombstone scared the hell out of me!
In general I liked those Conway second coming stories pretty well. I remember Spectacular with Conway being preferable to the other titles in that they were more character-driven and showcased the supporting cast better. I liked how Conway gave Robbie so much more attention than I'd ever seen him get in that era of Spidey stories.
The downside is that I found Conway's villains a little corny, including Tombstone to an extent, just as I did many of his creations that appeared during his first run. Sal Buscema's art was part of the reason. Sal's art on Spidey took a long time to grow on me. Tombstone's look just seemed kinda goofy, the chalk-white skin, the crew cut, the sharp teeth--he kinda looked like J. Jonah Jameson and Michael Morbius's bastard child!
So I enjoyed the spotlight on Robbie during that time, but my enjoyment on the Tombstone arc was tempered by my discontent with Buscema. Much more to my liking was the stuff with the Jackal, the Gwen Stacy Clone and Carrion. Pity it was all undone by the Clone Saga, but I found it enjoyable.
I finally warmed up to Sal on Spidey when DeMatteis came aboard and they told the epic Harry Osborne/Vermin mega-story! Those two blended together very well, and Sal's depiction of Harry as Green Goblin is among my very favorite visuals on the character, right up there with Romita Sr.!
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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"Putting aside the incredible #11 and #12, and the legendary and glorious #31-33, Doc Ock also reminded us why he was the top dog in the Sinister Six Annual, and then had (like I mentioned before) three terrific stories post-Ditko."
After the 2 '67 cartoons (where, inexplicably, Doc had 2 very different voices-- the 1st, Shakespearean, the 2nd, more standard "menacing"), my next view of him was in ASM #55-- "DOC OCK WINS". Damn, is he dangerous in there! (But Spidey is also VERY pissed. Watch out, baddies.)
Your comment about the Annual reminds me of the 1st FLASH comic I ever read-- "Stupendous Triumph of the Six Super-Villains". In that, it was blatently obvious WHO The Flash's "arch-enemy" really was-- it was the guy running the show-- MIRROR MASTER. When THE FLASH tv show was on, TV GUIDE stupidly referred to The Trickster as his "arch-enemy", because A)he appeared twice, and, no doubt, B)he reminded them of The Joker. They were wrong. Over that entire tv season, it was clear to me who the coolest, and SMARTEST of the tv villains on show was-- MIRROR MASTER (played by David Cassidy!!)
"You reminded me of the actor's name--Alfred Molina! IMO the greatest super-villain ever on screen"
Could be... though I'll always have a fondness for Frank Gorshin's Riddler (who was so much more dangerous than the comics version EVER was). Chuck Dixon retold ther Riddler's origin in a 'YEAR ONE" annual, which blew my mind, because for the only time reading a Riddler comic, I swore I could "hear" Gorshin's voice in the dialogue.
"Another Spider-villain who had the same sort of danger to him was the Lizard, particularly in the Silver Age. #6 was a classic and one of my favorites if for no other reason than seeing Ditko draw the Lizard and other reptiles. But I also really loved the Romita story in #44-45, which had a brilliant ending to it that MUST have been stolen from a 50's B-movie."
The cartoon adapting #6 was brillant. It was so odd that they did a sequel with Connors that did not feature The Lizard, but instead, brought back Aussie hunter Oli Clivendon (and also featured Ponce De Leon). The 3rd season did a terrible "sequel" that was virtually a remake, but featured an intelligent reptile, not Connors turned into one. The 2nd Lizard story in the comics was a classic, and really showed Romita at the height of his power. the action finale in part 2 went on for page after page, and never got boring. Frankly, EVERY Lizard story after that feels to me to have been uncalled-for. (Just like every Goblin sequel after SPECTACULAR #2.)
"That story also had Aunt May going off to Florida for awhile, showing it was an era where Aunt May still did things."
I loved the one time May showed up on the '67 cartoons. Pete was sick, she was nursing hjim back to health, he was annoyed at her attitude and "remedies", but unlike tyhe May in the comics, the one in that cartoon had a backbone of steel. When she told off JJJ over the phone, it was hilarious! Lots of people over the years (including John Buscema) have disliked May for her combination of physical feebleness, and gullibility somehow mixed with excessive smothering. May never quite seemed that way in the Ditko era, but the one on the G-L cartoon ("HORN OF THE RHINO") was somebody I could admire.
Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: PS – give me your thoughts on those Tombstone issues sometime! Tombstone is my absolute favorite post-Stern era villain Spidey has ever had (possibly only Shriek and Cardiac come close). When I was 12 years old, Tombstone scared the hell out of me!
In general I liked those Conway second coming stories pretty well. I remember Spectacular with Conway being preferable to the other titles in that they were more character-driven and showcased the supporting cast better. I liked how Conway gave Robbie so much more attention than I'd ever seen him get in that era of Spidey stories.
The downside is that I found Conway's villains a little corny, including Tombstone to an extent, just as I did many of his creations that appeared during his first run. Sal Buscema's art was part of the reason. Sal's art on Spidey took a long time to grow on me. Tombstone's look just seemed kinda goofy, the chalk-white skin, the crew cut, the sharp teeth--he kinda looked like J. Jonah Jameson and Michael Morbius's bastard child!
So I enjoyed the spotlight on Robbie during that time, but my enjoyment on the Tombstone arc was tempered by my discontent with Buscema. Much more to my liking was the stuff with the Jackal, the Gwen Stacy Clone and Carrion. Pity it was all undone by the Clone Saga, but I found it enjoyable.
I finally warmed up to Sal on Spidey when DeMatteis came aboard and they told the epic Harry Osborne/Vermin mega-story! Those two blended together very well, and Sal's depiction of Harry as Green Goblin is among my very favorite visuals on the character, right up there with Romita Sr.!
Sal Buscema and his artwork is something that I had to overcome too as a kid. When I was very young, about 12-14, I absolutely disliked Sal’s work quite a bit, especially his late 80’s/early 90’s stuff. In fact, I did realize this was the same Sal Buscema that began Spectacular Spider-Man when it first debuted in the mid-70’s! But in my mid-late teens, I really started to appreciate and like Sal’s artwork and in fact, nowadays, I absolutely love it. I really mean that—I enjoy looking at it and wish he could come back for a Spider-Man story once in awhile. It was really his facial expressions that were hard to get used to; his action sequences were always really good, and he had that explosive style of the old days of Marvel. Spectacular Spider-Man was always “Sal’s book” among the Spidey titles to me.
Like I said, Tombstone is a big favorite of mine. A lot of that is nostalgia, but that’s not a bad thing. I found him to be incredibly menacing, and a lot of that had to be because he was going after Joe Robertson, almost fatherly figure in Spidey’s history that I was horrified to see in such harm’s way. I found Tombstone’s look to be terrifying when I was a kid. And when they powered him up a bit, I didn’t mind that either.
The Harry / Vermin story was an awesome story with excellent art like you say. I agree—the Sal Buscema Green Goblin *is* the Harry GG to me. SSM #200, in which Harry dies, was beautifully done. I actually have always hated that Harry died, finding it redundant and wasteful. However, I *always* reread that issue when I went through the series, because of Sal’s excellent art. Getting back to the Vermin/GG story, the cover to #178 (if my memory serves me correctly—and it should) is the best Vermin cover of all time. It’s just really dynamic. I highly recommend some poster who is less lazy than me post a pic of it.
Another SSM story around that time that really showcased Sal’s work was the Puma / Black Crow story, which took place in Arizona (or where Puma lives, that I forget). The story itself wasn’t anything spectacular (though still solid) but the artwork was.
I never liked the retread stuff with the Jackal and Gwen in that SSM annual if that’s what you’re talking about—the one with the High Evolutionary. I felt it hurt the original story. The Carrion II stuff though I liked because he had such a great visual it was cool to see him return. However, Carrion II never had the grandeur of Carrion I in the PPTSS late 20’s/early 30’s, in which Carrion was the perfect heir to the legacy of Green Goblin I – Green Goblin II – the Jackal – Green Goblin III. He was another mystery villain of epic proportions that was distinct from what came before but completely based on prior continuity.
quote:Originally posted by profh0011: "Another Spider-villain who had the same sort of danger to him was the Lizard, particularly in the Silver Age. #6 was a classic and one of my favorites if for no other reason than seeing Ditko draw the Lizard and other reptiles. But I also really loved the Romita story in #44-45, which had a brilliant ending to it that MUST have been stolen from a 50's B-movie."
The cartoon adapting #6 was brillant. It was so odd that they did a sequel with Connors that did not feature The Lizard, but instead, brought back Aussie hunter Oli Clivendon (and also featured Ponce De Leon). The 3rd season did a terrible "sequel" that was virtually a remake, but featured an intelligent reptile, not Connors turned into one. The 2nd Lizard story in the comics was a classic, and really showed Romita at the height of his power. the action finale in part 2 went on for page after page, and never got boring. Frankly, EVERY Lizard story after that feels to me to have been uncalled-for. (Just like every Goblin sequel after SPECTACULAR #2).
Prof, your comments make me want to delete all my posts at the beginning of this thread and redo them all with a less rushed, more thought out structure (rather than me going on memory alone with no real structure the first time).
Like you said, those first two Lizard stories are so good, all the Lizard stories since have kind of been un-called for, particularly since they don’t deliver like those. You could make an entire movie out of ASM #44-45. The one other story I would include as a Lizard story I loved, and I admit this is purely for nostalgia purposes, is the third Lizard story at the close of the Tablet Saga. This is really less because of the Lizard coming back but more in the sense that this never-ending story just couldn’t quite end yet—Spidey had one more loose end to tie up and it was the most dangerous one yet; and oh yeah, the Torch is here to screw things up further. It fit in that Doc Conners was such a player in the Tablet Saga throughout. Plus, John Buscema got to do the Lizard, Spidey and the Torch, and even though he might have been uncomfortable doing Spidey, his Lizard was truly menacing.
*That* being said, however, I don’t think every Doc Conners appearance needs to be followed by the Lizard, which was the case in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s. Doc Conners played a critical role in #31-33 which is my favorite appearance of him EVER, and there was no need for the Lizard to be there.
I also admit the Lizard/Stergon appearances were fun, particularly when I was 12 years old. But yeah, they were really weren’t necessary.
Since we’ve been on the subject of the Romita era, I thought I’d keep it going with another of my favorite things about it: that it was much more than a villain of the month era, though it might seem that way at first.
- You had (2) major recurring menaces, Doc Ock and the Kingpin. The entire 50’s goes from Kingpin to Doc Ock to a few issues where Spidey has no memory (Ka-Zar and Spider-Slayer) to right back to the Kingpin when Spidey regains his memory!
- There are also some great super-villain stories in there, like the first Shocker story, the new Vulture / Kraven story, Mysterio and then the Vulture vs. New Vulture story. The latter of these is one of my favorites and features a few things I love: (A) the original Vulture kicking the crap out of Blackie Drago, the second Vulture, showing how clever and vicious the original was (and I generally always root for the originals). (B) It also features a heroic cop coming to Spidey’s aid in such a way that it happens so quickly its hardly noticed. Marvel used to do this all the time and I liked seeing that. And (C) JJJ and Robbie in harms way and Jonah pulling some photographer off the street to take pics…and all he gets are blurry clips of the Vulture’s feet and wings because he was so scarred.
- And then you had some great one-off stories that didn’t have a villain at all, like the Prison riot in the 60’s, Medusa’s appearance, Black Widow’s appearance with new costume and the issue where a delirious Pete reveals his identity to everyone and the Prowler has to save his ass. I love all of these issues, though I realize by this time Spidey has become Marvel’s premiere title and thus by having Black Widow and Medusa show up, it was promoting their transition to lead features in Astonishing Tales and Amazing Adventures.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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My first exposure to Sal Buscema'a pencils was the CAP story "Turning Point!" where he discovers he has super-strength. Steve Englehart brought back several of the baddies from the X-MEN 2-parter with Count Nefaria, and it was generally a fun issue. On re-reading it last year, I noticed something I missed before-- while John Verpoorten was credited as inker, the 1st HALF of the issue was inked by Joe Sinnott (uncredited!). NO WONDER it looked so good. I think for me, it's been downhill with Sal all the way ever since...
"You could make an entire movie out of ASM #44-45"
Maybe... but I'd hate to leave out ASM #6. But how could that work, structurally? I wonder similar thoughts about a "1st" FF movie they never made. My choice would have been some kind of adaptation of FF #1-2. You have the introduction of the characters, the origin, and the MOLE MAN on Monster Island. Actually maybe that would be enough for a whole movie. The Skrulls, should probably have their own movie, with the plot of the first 4 Skrull stories somehow stitched together into one big epic, ending with "Behold! A Distant Star!"
The only other Lizard story I ever cared for at all was the one with Morbius. I was surprised not long ago by how much I enjoyed ASM #101-- every fibre of it screams "Horror comics are back!", and it's much more fun to read than it seems it should be. Tossing The Lizard in there, with Connors in control for most of it, made an interesting change.
"Doc Conners played a critical role in #31-33 which is my favorite appearance of him EVER, and there was no need for the Lizard to be there."
I think that was the idea behind the cartoon "FOUNTAIN OF DOOM" as well, which was a sequel to both "WHERE CRAWLS THE LIZARD" and "THE ONE-EYED IDOL".
"I can assure you your demise will look like an accident." "Now that takes a LOAD off my mind!"
"You had (2) major recurring menaces, Doc Ock and the Kingpin. The entire 50’s goes from Kingpin to Doc Ock to a few issues where Spidey has no memory (Ka-Zar and Spider-Slayer) to right back to the Kingpin when Spidey regains his memory!"
That was HELL for me. I read ASM #55 shortly after it came out (freebie from the barber's). Incredibly, I read ASM #56 shortly after! But I didn't read ASM #57 until 8 years later, when a coverless copy SOMEHOW turned up at the corner store. I read #59-up in MARVEL TALES when they came out, but had to buy a copy of #58 at a convention the first time I went to one in NYC several YEARS later. (Unless I'm mistaken, they didn't include #57 or 58 in MARVEL TALES. Grrrr.)
You think waiting a week for the conclusion of a 2-parter on TV is bad, try waiting that many YEARS to read how a story finishes!
"Medusa’s appearance"
That was FUNNY, especially the lunatic who hired her for the ad campaign, who seemed like he could have been the brother of the movie producer back in ASM #16. "I can see it all now! We'll get a hundred dancing girls..." When he tells Spidey, "She's gone mad! She's out to destroy the city!", you'd think Spidey would at least have wondered... "How?"
"Black Widow’s appearance"
I was SEVERELY disappointed when I re-read this one in sequence. It made Natasha seem really stupid, the way she acted. Then again, having read a few of her first solo episodes right after, it seems she wasn't getting much good writing around that time.
"the issue where a delirious Pete reveals his identity to everyone and the Prowler has to save his ass"
I was so tempted to just STOP re-reading my Spidey comics at that point. Right after there, to me, is when things REALLY started to take a turn for the dark side.
"the Prison riot"
Now THERE is a classic, ans one that was adapted as the season finale for the '68-'69 season of the cartoon show. Except for changing the beginning (the tv version makes no sense at all), they were surprisingly true to the comic, even using a lot of actual Stan Lee dialogue, plus the "film noir" music was fantastic. They got Stacy's voice perfect in there, too, though it's a bit odd to hear him calling his wife on the phone instead of his daughter. Something I forget if it was in the comic that was in the show, at the beginning Spidey is lamenting spending nights running around town chasing crooks in a hot costume. At the end, as he leaves the prison, he tells Stacy he actually LIKES doing all that. It just occurs to me NOW, in a way, they may have also been adapting ASM #50, only I think the way it was handled in that cartoon was BETTER than the actual "Spider-Man No More", which to me was too much of a violation of Pete & Spider-Man, considering WHY he became a costumed crime-fighter in the first place. (Come to think of it, when SUPERMAN did a take-off on that issue, I think they handled it better than the Spidey comic, because at least in there, Supes was suffering guilt from almost having been responsible for an innocent person's death. ALMOST. Wimp...)
The 2nd season (Bakshi & Morrow's 1st) began with "THE ORIGIN OF SPIDERMAN" (adapted not from AMAZING FANTASY #15 but instead from SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN #2-- they used Stan's BADLY re-written dialogue verbatim!) and ended with "TO CAGE A SPIDER" (where, as I said, he was having a crisis of confidence about whether he wanted to continue being a hero or not). Nice bookends.
I'm amazed that I'm having so much fun here talking about a series I have such a violent love-hate thing about over the years. (If it were the FF, that'd be a lot simpler. I love almost everything in Kirby's 108 issues. And I HATE with a vengeance just about everything that followed until Roy Thomas took over the writing. It's gonna be painful when I get around to re-posting all those reviews I did of that era at the SA Marvel site.)
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