posted
I want to thank Cobie, Todd, and Doublechinner for keeping this thread afloat with discussions of Hickman's FF.
When Hickman's first issue came out, I Byrne-stole it and wasn't impressed, but after seeing all the praise here and on another site, I borrowed the library's copy of the first Hickman FF trade.
Now, read as a whole, the Council of Reeds three-parter revealed itself as impeccably crafted by both Hickman and Eaglesham. It hit all the right notes and all the right beats, it was scrumptious to look at (Eaglesham has done an amazing job of developing his own prettier variation of the iconic Kirby look.)
And yet...it left me cold.
At first, I couldn't figure out why. Then it came to me.
I've been in denial about it for almost 20 years, but I have never liked Reed, Sue, or Johnny. My enjoyment of select past FF runs has entirely hinged on two things: 1) Ben Grimm, and 2) Whether or not the creative team is to my taste.
At its core, the FF is a book about a witty, unpretentious, down-to-earth freak trapped within a Stepford Family.
It just so happened that this was the book where Stan & Jack unleashed their wildest imaginings.
Otherwise, it would never have survived as long as it has.
This is entirely in my humble opinion, of course. I'm sure many will disagree, and I respect your opinions.
But I have to thank you guys for helping me figure out just what it was about the FF that failed to convince me it was ever "The World's Greatest Comic Magazine" (and, yes, I'm well aware that Stan's hype was tongue-in-cheek, but many people, understandably in the case of those lucky enough to have been kids during the Silver Age, took to heart.)
Now, having said all that, if my FF Dream Team of Peter David & Todd Nauck ever get their shot at the FF, I'll read it. Despite PAD's recent decline, I think he'd bounce back if he got to write the FF -- but that's a whole other topic.
On the one hand, I don’t really agree with it, but on the other, you really bring up a couple of good points.
The first is that Reed, Sue & Johnny are often portrayed in not a good light. Reed, specifically has been written by some writers in an awful way that I personally loathe and its become a real personal pet peeve for me, so that I want to tell those writers they deserve a kick to the genitalia. But what’s funny is the fans are always quite willing to call Reed out on that, and yet, Sue and Johnny are (IMO) equally shown to be kind of jerkish and annoying at times. The line from ‘charming’ to ‘asshole’ on Johnny is pretty thin and many writers can’t seem to work it. Meanwhile, so many writers go out of their way to make Sue a stronger character (and therefore, fail to recognize she already is one) and she comes across as majorly condescending and a buzzkill. Let’s be honest here: sure, writers screw up Reed’s character quite a bit and make him come off as unlikeable, but Sue and Johnny have gotten the same treatment time and time again.
Now, all that being said I like all three characters quite a bit and think that’s just a symptom of bad writers on the FF over the years, or at least good writers failing to deliver the goods. So that’s where we disagree—I think all four characters are great, likeable and noble characters.
The second point you made that I really agree on is this: the Fantastic Four, as a comic book, lives and dies on the strength of the Thing. It’s always been that way, particularly in the franchise’s formative years, and in the decades since, whenever the Thing does not get the respect he deserves, is treated like a moron or is simply ignored, the Fantastic Four comic book suffers tremendously.
One of the major crimes in the history of Marvel is how much Marvel has allowed the Thing to be softened up over the years. He was akin to Wolverine in the Silver Age in terms of edginess, ferocity and popularity. Yet, sometime in the 70’s and beyond, he has gradually lost his edge. Sometimes now he comes across as a bumbling, lovable loser. I *hate* that portrayal of him. He’s got a heart of gold—absolutely. But, he’s not a flowery, aw-shucks kind of guy that would abstain from a conflict. He once betrayed the Fantastic Four to the Frightful Four, and and actually meant it without mind control or anything. Obviously, they shouldn’t go down that road again, but it shows this is a guy not to be trifled with. He doesn’t turn the other cheek or throw a fight to let some dude feel good about himself; he hands out a beating if he has to. He’s a tragic character, but they’ve removed a large degree of the tragedy and that’s hurt him.
I absolutely reject the stupid notion that many fans & creators have that the FF is a family unit and the Thing & Torch are adolescents to Reed & Sue’s adults. That’s a bunch of crap, and so anti-Kirby it hurts. It undermines the Thing’s quiet dignity, focues solely on Johnny’s bad qualities and sets up Reed & Sue to look pompous.
Now, I’m pretty happy with the current creative team, and am enjoying the run in a huge way. But you bring up some solid points on the FF in the broader sense so I thought I’d add my two cents.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Much appreciated, Cobie. Amen to everything you said about the Thing and about the "family unit" misconceptions!
And I have to say that I probably will continue to borrow the Hickman FF trades from the library, because what he's doing is solid enough and certainly the best FF in eons. But to get me to actually BUY the FF again would require a writer that I really hold in high esteem.
posted
I was pretty bummed when I heard Eaglesham wasn't staying on, but Epting coming on took away the sting pretty quickly!
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
[Title edited to be more encompassing. "New Creative Team for Fantastic Four" seems a little limiting a title, dontchathink? Don't worry--just because I edited two titles in one day, it doesn't mean I'm all mad with power or anything! ]
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Well, as excited as I am about Epting's oncoming arrival, I just read #579 and it was so incredibly and amazingly fantastic that I could not help but be even more excited about that instead. And this issue neither had Eaglesham's explosive pencils nor Epting's incredile talent, but rather the relatively unknown art of Neil Edwards & Andrew Currie, who do a very fine job.
Rather, this issue was so incredible because writer Jonathan Hickman has revealed another layer to his immense talent, as the larger tapestry he is weaving together begins to become slightly more clear to the reader. The sheer scope and epic nature of his run is something that you can feel pulsating on every page, much like his work on S.H.I.E.L.D. thus far, and now even moreso. Up until now, he had been giving us sneak previews, one-issue stories that were great in their own right but left you wondering how they tied into the larger FF mythos. And now, we begin to see that they sure will *somehow* even if its hard to say how.
The crux of the story doesn't sound all that exciting but it worked so incredibly well that I thought it was probably the single most defining moment for Reed in decades that showed off what an incredible, dynamic and noble character he is, even if that nobility is somehow more geared towards the pursuit of knowledge & betterment of humanity than the day to day relationships he sometimes forgets. He dissolves his old collective of the world's scientists and humanitarians and creates his new Future Foundation full of children and various others and it just felt really exciting.
Hickman brings back everyone from his previous stories and we can see how they fit into this Future Foundation: Alex Power, the Wizard's boy clone, the Moloids (who are freaking awesome by the way, including the floating head one), the Four Cities, Dragon Man (now being updated by Valeria), the always awesome Artie & Leech and of course, Frankie & Val. The Baxter Building just feels so full of life right now its great. Other subplots like the Wizard himself and Nu-World also seem full of possibilities.
Each of the 'Four Cities' stories served as a way to put the spotline on one of the FF so this issue kind of took a step back even if Reed had a lot of screen time. Still, it was great to Sue in her new role as Ambassador to the Peak of Old Atlantis. Also very nice to see Johnny giving Franklin *good* advice rather than the typical 'played for laugh' advice lesser writers would have him giving.
Hickman is doing the incredible: he's restoring that undefinable sense of wonder to the Fantastic Four. The series has a renewed energy that has built-up gradually; it didn't feel that way at first but by now it's certainly there.
Edwards & Currie actually do a great job on the art chores. They're not quite Eaglesham, but they get it done in a good way. Now imagine when Epting comes on? This could end up being Marvel's best title!
Reed's speech was something to behold. I wish he could give that to the world right now: corporations, politicians, the media and more than anyone else, academia.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Still one damn excellent Fantastic Four comic by Hickman. This far into the run and I can say this blows all previous FF runs of the last 2 decades out of the water: Waid, Millar, Claremont, etc.
Really enjoying this latest time-traveling craziness arc with Franklin, Val and Nathaniel Richards. Hickman has somehow managed to wield a tale that actually feels like it fits with the entirely of FF history which is no easy feat, while feeling incredibly fresh. Whatever happens with Franklin & Val, it feels daring and true to the series at the same time.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I read Epting's first FF issue, and while I thought his art was typically faultless, the story left something to be desired. Hickman seems to put together a story the way a weaver puts together a tapestry. There's a bittiness to Hickman's FF work, not only the individual issues but even the arcs themselves. If Hickman is able to pull off one huge overarching storyline, I'll be impressed, but I'm skeptical.
Having said that, at least Hickman is trying something different rather than just re-hashing Stan & Jack's work. What's going to be the make-or-break factor of Hickman's run is which member ends up dying.
If it's Reed, which seems most likely, it carries unpleasant echoes of the Tom DeFalco FF run.
If it's Sue, there's arguably no reason for the other three to stay together.
If it's Johnny, well, I never cared much for Johnny, and I suspect many people feel the same.
If it's Ben, it could either destroy the book or finally move it forward for the first time in 40 years. I love Ben, but the more I think about it, the more I believe that his full story has already been told (and retold and retold.) And without Ben to outshine them, the other three could finally come into their own.
So I'm taking a 180 degree turn from my previous statements in this thread, and hope it's Ben.
Hyperpath: Email this page to someone!
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