Topic: The Complete Continuity Match-Up Checklist: from Baxter to Levitz Relaunch (revised)
Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: Now see, I see "this" reality as existing PRE Glorith -verse since it is PRE 5year Gap and since Johns made such an effort to place the JLA /JSA Legion PRE Crisis, in addition to not moving them forward passed say , Magic Wars; any reference to a Pocket Universe would seem to be an obvious one towards specifically the one the Time Trapper created especially since it is HIM referencing it.
I think why you seem to be at odds with most people on this thread is that it is generally agreed that this is a NEW reality coming out of the multiverse created in Infinite Crisis. To date there have been several realities:
the Earth-1 universe of the original multiverse (up to Crisis on Infinite Earths). In parallel to this was the various other universes like the 'Adult' Legion universe.
After Crisis came the single universe where Superman never was Superboy and the Time Trapper created the pocket universe. this Post Crisis universe was reset out of existance when Mon-El destroyed the Time Trapper of that universe.
When time was reset the Mordru-verse came into existance until Glorith seized power when the Glorithverse was born.
After the events of Zero Hour, time was reset again and the reboot Legion was then the Legion of that universe.
Infinite Crisis recreated a new multiverse and in that multiverse at least four Legions exist together with the remnants of Legion-247 who now call themselves the New Wanderers.
It is important to be clear that none of these happened before or after the others but are resets of time that meant they replaced the others.
The current reality isn't pre 5 year gap but has replaced the 5 year gap universe (and by implication all the universes that existed before the 5 year gap universe).
It has been established that much of pre-Crisis did occur on the current Earth 0 (so the JLA/JSA/Legion crossover did happen on this current Earth) and indeed Legacies showed that there was a Crisis of sorts even in this new continuity, just one where the JLA and JSA were from a single world and the Earths never merged.
Geoff Johns wanted to pick the Legion up by writing off all of the post-Crisis events. Paul Levitz doesn't see things the same (which in my opinion is a pity because it would have been much neater).
So when we look at the history of the current Legion of Earth 0, we have to recognise that what went before the Lightning Saga, remains largely un-documented. (which is why this thread exists!)
Earth 0 history obviously follows similarities to the pre- and post-Crisis universes but could not possibly be the same as either. Jimmy Olsen, Lana Lang, Pete Ross and Supergirl are very different characters to previous universes, while even Superboy's backstory and abilities are different to either the pre-Crisis or Pocket Universe Boys of Steel. Add the fact that other things could not have happened as they did - the Universo/Green Lantern issue springs to mind - and this is very definitely a different universe with a different back story, albeit with many similarities to now non-existant universes.
quote:Added to which, the Superman editorial team was only too happy to drop the Superman killed the phantom zone prisoners storyline from continuity so dragging up the PU would be an embarrasment to the Superman titles.
I havnt read anything about this. Is there anything published negating this story, I heard Matrix was in the recent Reign In Hell mini. The embarrassment part is opinion and I'm sure isn't "as" embarrassing as say whats going on there right now with all the citizenship crapola, YMMV.
Matrix wasn't in Reign of Hell, the Linda Danvers Supergirl was, without any reference to Matrix which had already been separated from Supergirl anyway. Whatever you think of the citizenship issue, I read - but I can't find again, sorry - that the current Superman editorial team are totally against the 'Superman executioner' storyline still being in continuity. And this fits with the dialogue in Lo3W about whether Superboy Prime should be killed or not and with other flashback stories like Legaies, Secret Origin etc that totally omitted any reference. The Earth 0 Superman did not execute the phantom zone prisoners (presumably because he never encountered them), while the post Crisis Superman did.
-------------------- "Our devotion to each other was unexplainable" "You were kids" "No Batman, we were Legion"
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: Now see, I see "this" reality as existing PRE Glorith -verse since it is PRE 5year Gap and since Johns made such an effort to place the JLA /JSA Legion PRE Crisis, in addition to not moving them forward passed say , Magic Wars; any reference to a Pocket Universe would seem to be an obvious one towards specifically the one the Time Trapper created especially since it is HIM referencing it.
I think why you seem to be at odds with most people on this thread is that it is generally agreed that this is a NEW reality coming out of the multiverse created in Infinite Crisis. To date there have been several realities:
The current reality isn't pre 5 year gap but has replaced the 5 year gap universe (and by implication all the universes that existed before the 5 year gap universe).
.
Whoah whoa wha?? When was this revealed??
All we know is "some" time passed from Magic Wars till "now". It would seem anyone assuming 5 years has gone by is somehow simply trying make SOME desperate connection to the real 5YG.
I think the reason I'm "at odds" here ( really?) is that I'm actually reading the books published as if Magic Wars ended and then boom! The Legion appears next on JLA/JSA .
There isn't any reason to assume that ANYTHING 5YG has/is or will happen.
quote:Added to which, the Superman editorial team was only too happy to drop the Superman killed the phantom zone prisoners storyline from continuity so dragging up the PU would be an embarrasment to the Superman titles.
I havnt read anything about this. Is there anything published negating this story, I heard Matrix was in the recent Reign In Hell mini. The embarrassment part is opinion and I'm sure isn't "as" embarrassing as say whats going on there right now with all the citizenship crapola, YMMV.
quote:Matrix wasn't in Reign of Hell, the Linda Danvers Supergirl was, without any reference to Matrix which had already been separated from Supergirl anyway. Whatever you think of the citizenship issue, I read - but I can't find again, sorry - that the current Superman editorial team are totally against the 'Superman executioner' storyline still being in continuity. And this fits with the dialogue in Lo3W about whether Superboy Prime should be killed or not and with other flashback stories like Legaies, Secret Origin etc that totally omitted any reference. The Earth 0 Superman did not execute the phantom zone prisoners (presumably because he never encountered them), while the post Crisis Superman did.
Again all I ask is for some published reference , because it all sounds like speculation to me and speculation used to fit the design of " I don't like that so it never happened" yet that being the case logic can certainly work both ways as easily.
While Infinite Crisis did create a new Multiverse Nothing in print has disclaimed the existence of Matrix, Phantom Zone criminals of the pocket Universes execution or the pocket universe itself.
By utilizing those elements with in the reference of a story you are by doing so perpetuating it's existence especially if yourfurthering it's effects on characters in an effort to move the story along.
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Let me just reiterate so's not to infer I ignored all your valid points
I understand that it could make sense to some to want ot fill a void that was removed by eliminating the 5YG continuity and by doing so assume after End of an Era the Archie Legion filled it and now the current Legion serves to fill that void also.
All I'm saying is that "void" doesn't exist. By simply continuing after Magic Wars there is no other continuity to fill. We have no sense of how much real time has passed for the Legion and nothing except those final pages and what is currently published can or should WANT to fill that void.
Therefore, there was no Glorithverse, Garth is no longer Proty, Mon-El is no longer ( as far as we know) carrying the Time Trapper within him nor were we ever shown his fate after the heart monitors shorted out. It seems simple to just erase anything after the "Gap" to me, I never once thought to give it such validity that it would be necessary to compare it with current continuity in a way as to think things could contradict it. Contradict something that never took place?
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Modified: "Probably removed from continuity" is mostly moved into "other DCU", and I created separate sections for new and old DCU.
Registered: Apr 2010
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Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Modified: "Probably removed from continuity" is mostly moved into "other DCU", and I created separate sections for new and old DCU.
It's just a theory at this stage but I'm seeing LSH v6 (the current run) as post Flashpoint - well at least until v7 comes out and somethings different.
My logic in saying V6 is post Flashpoint is that Flashpoint is referenced by Harmonia Li as a known event in history. But on top of this there are so many anomalies between the Johns run and the Levitz run that the two being from different timelines makes emminant sense. Consider:
The Emerald Empress being alive (Johns) and long dead (Levitz) Tyroc being MIA (Johns) and back with the Legion (Levitz) Night Girl and XS as team-mates (Johns) and XS not knowing Lydda (Levitz) Starboy seemingly coming back with Cham, Tenz etc (Johns/Gates) but only later showing up (Levitz) Lu called Duplicate Damsel (Johns) and Duplicate Dirl (Levitz)
These are only some of the examples I have found. As I said at the start, just a theory at this stage.
-------------------- "Our devotion to each other was unexplainable" "You were kids" "No Batman, we were Legion"
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
I don't consider mistakes to be signs of the story taking place in a new continuity. "V6 takes place in a new continuity where Gates' homeworld is named Vyraga, and Marzal is a 'homeworld'..."
Also, Paul's already on record as saying not all of Legion of Three Worlds is continuity, which covers the Empress.
Registered: Apr 2010
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Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Also, Paul's already on record as saying not all of Legion of Three Worlds is continuity, which covers the Empress.
That's exactly my point Lo3W was in continuity when Johns wrote it so what has taken it out? Flashpoint!
-------------------- "Our devotion to each other was unexplainable" "You were kids" "No Batman, we were Legion"
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
The Legion has had several crossovers which clearly did not take place after Flashpoint, including the last New Krypton story and the crossover in Supergirl annual 2.
And while the new series did have an early reference to Flashpoint, remember that the whole reboot idea is a last minute demand from DC management. A reference to Flashpoint would simply be a reference to a crossover as a crossover, it would not establish that those stories are post-reboot.
As for known changes such as the Emerald Empress, when a writer ignores a story, that doesn't put the story in a "different continuity", it means the story is ignored. There isn't a separate continuity where Cosmic Boy has magnetic eyes or where the Legionnaires call themselves "lad" and "lass" because they invented a way to prevent aging. No in-story history rewrite wiped those plot elements out of continuity; taking them away is purely an out-of-story thing with no explanation in-story at all.
Registered: Apr 2010
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Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: As for known changes such as the Emerald Empress, when a writer ignores a story, that doesn't put the story in a "different continuity", it means the story is ignored. There isn't a separate continuity where Cosmic Boy has magnetic eyes or where the Legionnaires call themselves "lad" and "lass" because they invented a way to prevent aging. No in-story history rewrite wiped those plot elements out of continuity; taking them away is purely an out-of-story thing with no explanation in-story at all.
Sorry, I don't buy that. Sure some silver age story with magnetic eyes can be ignored or a holiday special where Shady had umbra's solid light abilities even... but.... Legion of three worlds was a solid part of not only Legion continuity but also DC's (return of Kid Flash and Superboy)only two years ago. For a writer to just lose it's ramifications is sloppy in the extreme. To dismiss parts and not others is frankly taking the p!ss. If such things are dismissed as writer's perogative then this whole thread is pointless because the answer to every change is "Levitz/Johns/Robinson just decided that that was the way it now is".
Either Lo3W is in continuity or it should be explained in story why it isn't. Flashpoint would be an obvious explanation if no other changes are revealed in/after September.
-------------------- "Our devotion to each other was unexplainable" "You were kids" "No Batman, we were Legion"
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
Unfortunately this whole practice of one writer ignoring the continuity established by other writers is what eventually led to DC losing its spot as the number one comics company back in the silver age.
Marvel made it a practice to keep all their books consistent with each other, even to the point of moving most of their characters that were starring in their own series out of the Avengers and replacing them with "orphans" such as Hawkeye, Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch specifically to avoid contradicting storylines. DC, meanwhile, was publishing books that would have (just to use one glaring example) the Earth-two based Spectre treat the Earth-one Flash as if he was the only character ever to bear that name. Fans got sick of it and deserted DC for Marvel in droves.
Sadly, DC seems destined to never learn from its own mistakes.
-------------------- First comic books ever bought: A DC four-for-47-cents grab bag that included Adventure #331. Been addicted ever since.
From: Stuck in the Psychedelic Era | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Legion of Three Worlds was in fact a continuity mess in several areas. Bringing *back* the Emerald Empress was one of them. You can't blame Paul for ignoring that she was alive, when the fact that she was even shown as being alive already ignored her death.
(And it's not just that Johns was continuing from before the end of V3 either. He also had Tharok and Validus back.)
Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Legion of Three Worlds was in fact a continuity mess in several areas. Bringing *back* the Emerald Empress was one of them. You can't blame Paul for ignoring that she was alive, when the fact that she was even shown as being alive already ignored her death.
(And it's not just that Johns was continuing from before the end of V3 either. He also had Tharok and Validus back.)
Ah, but was it Johns, or did George Perez just get carried away with his crowd scenes?
-------------------- First comic books ever bought: A DC four-for-47-cents grab bag that included Adventure #331. Been addicted ever since.
From: Stuck in the Psychedelic Era | Registered: Jan 2010
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