Topic: The Complete Continuity Match-Up Checklist: from Baxter to Levitz Relaunch (revised)
Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: While we're at it, was the panel with XS from Adventure #1 ever used as part of Flashpoint? Geoff Johns worked on Flashpoint, and XS was in it, so it is possible.
no it was never used
-------------------- "Our devotion to each other was unexplainable" "You were kids" "No Batman, we were Legion"
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
Added Secret Origin #2 where "Brainiac" is considered an honorable title, even though it was considered shameful in Adventure #9. This restores continuity from Levitz's previous run and is an un-retconning, not a retconning.
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
Seems in general that Levitz is depowering the Legionnaires, especially Element Lad. Didn't he have to touch something to transmute it in the 3Boot? I like that limitation. Note sure I like "oh, it's too complicated for me." Wonder if that is being done to differentiate Element Lad from Chemical Kid? Could Chem Kid alter the structure of a complex organic molecule? Could the two of them do it together? Or are CK's powers always about reactions? If so, he could speed up enzymatic breakdown of the antilead syrum, I suppose?
-------------------- ...but you don't have a moment where you're sitting there staring at a table full of twenty-five characters with little name signs that say, "Hi, my superpower is confusing you!"
From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
In my long history of message board posting across many, many forums; when a post starts with -
"Not wanting to pick a fight"
or anything similiar (eg, "not trolling or anything but,") that is exactly the intent of the post.
From: Fort McMurray | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
In Gone's defense, that is a fair question. And it was rather nice of him to put it inside a spoiler.
My own thoughts on continuity (or rather 'continuity') have been clearly not welcome here, so I will not repeat them. Nor will I blame Gone for any uncivil answers he may receive.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
With respect to gone's request directly above, I just got finishing typing out my response, and wanted to share it with the larger group instead of directly, in case anyone felt the same.
Anyway...
I agree that it's a valid question. Though I haven't participated in this specific thread, I do enjoy discussions about continuity (even understanding that whatever theories are suggested or conclusions are reached are likely to never even be addressed in print).
I can't speak for anyone else but, from my own perspective, I would say that fictional continuity debates - and the cataloguing of minutia - enhance my enjoyment of the source material by making me feel like a more active participant in the story. It's as though whatever little plot discrepancy I noted - and subsequently solved to my own satisfaction - becomes a bridge to extend my suspension of disbelief.
I don't know if I put that well, so let me give an example that goes back almost to the Legion's beginnings. When the Legion first met Supergirl they said they were the children of the Legionnaires who had previously (from a publishing standpoint) met Superboy. That little bit of plot was subsequently ignored and never addressed in-story... but it always bugged me. I "needed" to know why, from a continuity perspective, that conversation had happened.
I concocted the idea that this was actually, from the Legion's perspective, the first time they ever travelled back to the 20th century. Upon realizing that Supergirl already knew of them from her cousin's stories about his childhood, and knowing that those events hadn't happened yet for them, they suddenly realized the enormity of the time travel repercussions. Not wanting to engage Supergirl in this discussion for fear of messing with their own future, they just sort of panicked and blurted out that "children" thing to quickly change the subject.
Would something so convoluted like that ever be addressed in-story? Probably not... but it answered that niggling point to my own personal satisfaction and I took that away as my own version of continuity. In doing so, I now became - of sorts - a type of co-author of the Legion story that existed in my mind, a hybrid between the printed "facts" and the extension of that in my imagination.
Like I say, I don't know why anyone else likes the process of continuity debate, but that's why I do.
-------------------- See Here for the latest update on the 2013 Chicago Gathering (now including tentative attendance list)
Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
Continuity and solving disparate continuity is fun. Now, when you become invested in it and someone makes a stupid diversion it can be very frustrating, but also an opportunity to solve that conundrum. Different writers play to it with different strengths. John Ostrander was a master of taking lemons and making story lemonade. Johns started out in that vein but lost the thread along the way and started contributing more to unnecessary retcons than fixing bad ones. Levitz is somewhere in the middle. He seems interested in a consistent narrative within his own work, but is perfectly happy to ignore what came before (including some of his earlier stuff).
From: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Exnihil: ... but it answered that niggling point to my own personal satisfaction and I took that away as my own version of continuity. In doing so, I now became - of sorts - a type of co-author of the Legion story that existed in my mind, a hybrid between the printed "facts" and the extension of that in my imagination.
This expresses my thoughts exactly.
I used to LOVE figuring out continuity. Back in the early '80s, I calculated birthdates for each Marvel hero (most of whom hadn't been around longer than 20 years at that point, so it was *mildly* plausible that Spidey was born in 1945) and being so annoyed when Marvel would throw in a line that violated the "realism" of my timeline (e.g., Ben and Reed having known each other for 20-odd years instead of 40).
Much later I accepted the "realities" of comic book publishing, including the notion that heroes cannot age on par with real people. But during those years when I was inventing my own answers, I felt as if I had something to contribute to the Marvel Universe and that, in some ways, it was "mine".
Of course, this was long before the Internet, so I had no one to share my ideas with. (I did send a letter to Marvel once, outlining the probable birth year of every major character. They ignored it.) Were I reading the current Legion series, I'd probably love engaging in a thread such as this.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
What purpose does this thread serve? What purpose does any thread serve, really?
Some of us like speculating on whether a tree that collapsed on an insectoid alien in a story from the sixties might have been a drunken Tree-Man of Arbro.
Other people seem to enjoy collecting data on how the Legion as portrayed in the current run differs from the Legion as portrayed in previous runs.
To each their own.
As far as continuity in general goes, I don't care so much that the current version of the Legion isn't exactly like the version of the Legion from thirty years ago, except incidentally in the fact that many of the changes from then I happen to dislike significantly, such as changing R.J. Brande from a kindly, benevolent self-made man to someone with a weird speech pattern who buys politicians and makes me feel like joining an Occupy Weisinger Plaza movement.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
quote:Originally posted by Exnihil: With respect to gone's request directly above, I just got finishing typing out my response, and wanted to share it with the larger group instead of directly, in case anyone felt the same.
Anyway...
I agree that it's a valid question. Though I haven't participated in this specific thread, I do enjoy discussions about continuity (even understanding that whatever theories are suggested or conclusions are reached are likely to never even be addressed in print).
I can't speak for anyone else but, from my own perspective, I would say that fictional continuity debates - and the cataloguing of minutia - enhance my enjoyment of the source material by making me feel like a more active participant in the story. It's as though whatever little plot discrepancy I noted - and subsequently solved to my own satisfaction - becomes a bridge to extend my suspension of disbelief.
I don't know if I put that well, so let me give an example that goes back almost to the Legion's beginnings. When the Legion first met Supergirl they said they were the children of the Legionnaires who had previously (from a publishing standpoint) met Superboy. That little bit of plot was subsequently ignored and never addressed in-story... but it always bugged me. I "needed" to know why, from a continuity perspective, that conversation had happened.
I concocted the idea that this was actually, from the Legion's perspective, the first time they ever travelled back to the 20th century. Upon realizing that Supergirl already knew of them from her cousin's stories about his childhood, and knowing that those events hadn't happened yet for them, they suddenly realized the enormity of the time travel repercussions. Not wanting to engage Supergirl in this discussion for fear of messing with their own future, they just sort of panicked and blurted out that "children" thing to quickly change the subject.
Would something so convoluted like that ever be addressed in-story? Probably not... but it answered that niggling point to my own personal satisfaction and I took that away as my own version of continuity. In doing so, I now became - of sorts - a type of co-author of the Legion story that existed in my mind, a hybrid between the printed "facts" and the extension of that in my imagination.
Like I say, I don't know why anyone else likes the process of continuity debate, but that's why I do.
Exnihil I applied exactly the same logic to that conversation as you. I share your feelings on continuity debate as well.
-------------------- "Our devotion to each other was unexplainable" "You were kids" "No Batman, we were Legion"
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
I find the list useful for keeping track of what's been stated officially, so I can decide what to reference for use in my fanfic writing.
And what purpose does fanfic serve? None at all. It just makes me happy.
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
In the spirit that the above posters have shown, I will chime in after all. Perhaps those who made me avoid this forum are no longer as unavoidable.
First, as to continuity itself, i see several types.
There is tight continuity, as exemplified by the Stan Lee 1960s model, in which if the Hulk farts in his own issue, it is cross-referenced when Peter Parker hears it all the way across town. This system works when there is a sigular vison to keep multi-series vectors interactive (a la Lee) or when there is a large staff devoted to keeping track of this (such as within a movie, in the Lucas Star Wars universe, or even in the heyday of TV soaps). Neither. DC nor Legion specifically have ever adhered to this, as much as some fans may wish to the contrary. It did not exist pre-crisis, and every effort to create such an order has failed, insomuch as such efforts require some sort of changes to what has previously been presented. The cat was never in the bag on this front, especially for Legion (magnetic eyes, anyone?).
Next, there is what i shall call sitcom continuity, in which characters essentailly are standardized, so standardized that no matter what happens in any particular episode, they are essentially the same at the start of any episode as they were at the outset of any other. This is typical of precrisis Superboy stories, I Love Lucy, and many many others. The Simpsons uses this to an extent; Homer can be a vice-presidential candidate but it is never referenced again (although, yes, there may be occassional slight changes, like the addition/subtaction of a supporting cast member, but nothing major). Legion established itself early on as not being this, although Superboy remained so.
Next, there is ballpark continuity, in which there is an order, but it is deliberately hard to nail down. Hellblazer is an example of this; a storyteller can refer back to some event or girlfriend from 10 years ago; even though we can look back on the comics and figure out which issues it. Would take place between, it really doesn't. Matter. The character inherently has backstory/sidestory we wil neer know the totality of, and inttroducing new-old characters works. Similarly, rather than Hellblazer fans debating as to the contradictory stories as to whether John can drive a car or not, we just accept that as part of the mystery. Legion has only occassionally gone this route: pre-Adv 300 when there was no real sense of how many legionnaires there were and news ones were introduced on the drop of a dime, within the five year gap, and the pre-#1 events in Threeboot. In general, there is so much Legion lore that fans have enjoyed (or otherwise felt compelled) to place a tighter order on what is perceived to be canon than this approach generally allows.
There are undoubtedly plenty of variations beyond my summaries, but i am limiting my description to four. Thus my last category is what. Will call Arthurian, in which there have been so many storytellers and versions that it is asically impossible to impose a singular structure upon them all while still including all the variants. In many ways, Lancelot may well have originated as a Laurel Kent to Tristan's Supergirl, but it doesn't matter. The canon is thematically true, no matter how many variants and contradictions emerge. As may be guessed, this is the model i think works best with Legion. There are too many variants and contadictions to ever be covered in a singular framework, and i am okay with that, so long as it fits a larger thematic truthiness.
So, having taken the long way around the barn, for those who want to figure out which of the many contadictory elements are being used in this current version, so be it. I pesonally enjoy figuring it as the story unravels, but to each their own. I only object to being told ones opinion does not. Matter because it doesn't fit one poster's individual perception of what is now continuity, simply becuas they have made a big list. I also question the prioritizing of continuity above all else, but again, that is their choice.
As Exxy and the others are saying, continuty can be a fun exercize to put incomgruities and gaps together; that's part of the fun (and i came to the same hypothesis re the 'children of the legion' comment). But it can be an encumberance when continuity gets in the way of story, enjoyment, or both, and such conditions can be created by storyteller or merely inferred by readers.
To me, if i cannot find a way to enjoy it, it isn't worth my time, unless i'm being paid for it. With comics, i am not paid for it, so i am not going to attach great weight to it. If i really cared about which details are in play in the current version, i'd be very vested in this thread. I am content to see where Paul Levitz et al take us; i don't want to overthink the ride. I used to work in a CBS; i lived continuity and breathed it. I foud that i'd lost the sheer joy of surprise and excitement, which i'd rather have. All i ask is that it fits the larger thematic picture, which it does.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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