quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: That's still your interpitation and considering you are reinterpitating it with current "continuity" in mind it would read as a contradiction considering Johns mistake.
Huh? The story contradicted itself (assuming you take the second part to mean that they forgot the whole adventure--and you've already said that). Johns and current continuity have nothing to do with it except that Johns and current continuity have to pick one side of the contradiction.
quote: Reading the story from the context when it was published you have an out of continuity story.
No, reading the story in the context it was published means you have a story with a mistake in it. Mistakes happen. They don't make the story out of continuity.
quote: Although considering Levitz's quote from the above link you provided it validates what I have been saying all along with regard to the Pocket Universe reference in John's Action Comic 864. ""Only the pre-1990 series and the first two Johns stories--and whatever still-unwritten bits happened in-between will count".
You wanted to know where Paul says Legion of Three Worlds doesn't count. I told you.
Now where's the reference to the pocket universe in Action 864? (And specifically a reference to the pocket universe being part of the Legion's current timeline--not just something the Trapper knows from another timeline).
Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: That's still your interpitation and considering you are reinterpitating it with current "continuity" in mind it would read as a contradiction considering Johns mistake.
Huh? The story contradicted itself
Huh? Indeed. You are basing your entire point of view on one sentence surrounded by 3 panels stating clearly the heroes forgot their adventure thanks to Green Lantern's Post hypnotic suggestion. Given your cherry picking efforts in posting it isn't surprising you read in the same manner. So clearly it is your belief that specifically, based solely on those three panels, JLofA 147 & 148 when published, Batman and the rest were aware of their adventure with the Legion in JLoA 149. Yet you need an asterisk attached to the words "pocket universe" in bold refering to a large orange box containing a play by play dissertation as to what that could mean, can mean, will mean , has meant and no longer means in terms to how you obviously understand a story.
quote:
quote: Reading the story from the context when it was published you have an out of continuity story.
No, reading the story in the context it was published means you have a story with a mistake in it. Mistakes happen. They don't make the story out of continuity
What makes it out of continuity is that Batman can't recall what he and the JLA and the JSA don't know occured. There is no mistake.
quote:
quote: Although considering Levitz's quote from the above link you provided it validates what I have been saying all along with regard to the Pocket Universe reference in John's Action Comic 864. ""Only the pre-1990 series and the first two Johns stories--and whatever still-unwritten bits happened in-between will count".
You wanted to know where Paul says Legion of Three Worlds doesn't count. I told you.
Now where's the reference to the pocket universe in Action 864? (And specifically a reference to the pocket universe being part of the Legion's current timeline--not just something the Trapper knows from another timeline).
It obvious you havnt read Action Comics 864 nor do you want to. You ignore that entire book along with one panel posted here. However using Levitz's own quote and the content within Action 864 it seems the the Pocket Universe is referenced in modern continuity or as you put it "the Legion's current timeline".
Which doesn't mean we ever "need" to ever visit it or specifics from the PRE 5 Year Gap Legion. The time from then until now is purposely left unknown or surrounded in Mystery. But until otherwise published there is no reason to simply assume it never happened just because a reader doesn't "like" it and take that dislike and report on it as if it is fact. When in fact if the Pocket Universe and Conpiracy truly never happened something published should clearly, with out a doubt express this. What if anything published does? Certainly not a book that references it in current continuity.
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: You are basing your entire point of view on one sentence surrounded by 3 panels stating clearly the heroes forgot their adventure thanks to Green Lantern's Post hypnotic suggestion.
There is not three panels saying they forgot their adventure. There's one phrase. The rest of the three panels imply they forgot specific things (for instance not knowing what happened to the satellite), not the whole adventure (for instance, they still knew they had been in the 30th Century).
quote: What makes it out of continuity is that Batman can't recall what he and the JLA and the JSA don't know occured. There is no mistake.
The idea that they don't know anything occurred is based on your belief that the original story had them forget. The original story contradicted itself about whether they forgot.
quote:You ignore that entire book along with one panel posted here.
The panel posted here showed that the Trapper remembered the pocket universe, not that the pocket universe is part of the current Legion's continuity. Being the Trapper, he can remember things that are out of continuity.
If you can show me a panel where the pocket universe is part of the current Legion's continuity--not just something that the Trapper remembers--I will put it in the list as part of continuity. If you don't, I won't.
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
While we're at it, I read that Lois Lane was shown to have a flight ring (in a comic, not in Smallville). Does anyone have a reference to that?
Registered: Apr 2010
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Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
According to a short
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: While we're at it, I read that Lois Lane was shown to have a flight ring (in a comic, not in Smallville). Does anyone have a reference to that?
According to a short story in Action Comics #900 by Geoff Johns, the ring was given to her by Saturn Girl in case of emergencies
-------------------- "Our devotion to each other was unexplainable" "You were kids" "No Batman, we were Legion"
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
Did they say when she got one? In Lightning Saga when they were looking for Legionnaires by tracing the flight ring, they mentioned all the extras. Lois didn't have one.
I'd also imagine that Lois having a flight ring is very inconvenient for Superman plots, since now every time she's falling to her death (or just needs to jump out of a window) she's got a flight ring.
Registered: Apr 2010
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Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Did they say when she got one? In Lightning Saga when they were looking for Legionnaires by tracing the flight ring, they mentioned all the extras. Lois didn't have one.
I'd also imagine that Lois having a flight ring is very inconvenient for Superman plots, since now every time she's falling to her death (or just needs to jump out of a window) she's got a flight ring.
in Action 900 it soesn't say when Lois got it but presumably after she married - which means after the Lightning Saga as there had been no contact before that since before Clark got married.
Lois keeps the ring 'hidden' under her desk and she did say in Action 900 that she won't use it to fly because she preferes flying with Superman.
-------------------- "Our devotion to each other was unexplainable" "You were kids" "No Batman, we were Legion"
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: she did say in Action 900 that she won't use it to fly because she preferes flying with Superman.
Sheesh, that's ridiculous. I can understand wanting to fly with Superman to have fun, but that's not going to save her the next time she's thrown out of a helicopter and Superman happens to be off in China at the moment.
Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: You are basing your entire point of view on one sentence surrounded by 3 panels stating clearly the heroes forgot their adventure thanks to Green Lantern's Post hypnotic suggestion.
There is not three panels saying they forgot their adventure.
Yes there are.
quote: rest of the three panels imply they forgot specific things (for instance not knowing what happened to the satellite), not the whole adventure (for instance, they still knew they had been in the 30th Century).
Please quote how they forgot specific things but still knew they had been to the 30th century.
quote: There is no mistake.The idea that they don't know anything occurred is based on your belief that the original story had them forget. The original story contradicted itself about whether they forgot.
Again that is your opinion it isn't fact and it is based it would seem on your intent on making Johns continuity faux paux canon. However u did choose not to answer the question on whether or not you believed Batman and the rest to have had said adventure in the following issue of JLA 149, not to mention that it hasn't been referenced in 34 years as in continuity, because it never was. Now maybe I could understand if it was in fact referenced atleast 3 times in the current continuity if not textually then maybe visually.
Like the Pocket Universe and Conspiracy
quote: If you can show me a panel where the pocket universe is part of the current Legion's continuity--not just something that the Trapper remembers--I will put it in the list as part of continuity. If you don't, I won't.
Already done based on your stipulation of non printed in the comics Levitz quote. Utilizing the general reading abilities learned from grade school and beyond not to mention cut n paste; Action Comics 864 and Legion of 3Worlds.
But you choose to interpet the Time Trapper as existing in his own continuity and pick and choose in your own mind what he talks about and refers to and how that manages to exist in general continuity. With out again, no reference to what u feel is or isn't valid beyond your own opinion. Considering you place spelling errors as "continuity errors" it doesn't bother me what u place on the "list". It is full ofcreator intent "errors" itself. I just hope new readers to Legion have the capacity, if they should stumble on to this site, not to fall under the notion the list is in any way accurate or unbiased on it's info.
As proven in your continuity error reasoning machine.
Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: According to a short
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: While we're at it, I read that Lois Lane was shown to have a flight ring (in a comic, not in Smallville). Does anyone have a reference to that?
According to a short story in Action Comics #900 by Geoff Johns, the ring was given to her by Saturn Girl in case of emergencies
Don't we have to wait and see if Paul Levitz says Action Comics 900 is in continuity before we can establish any facts?
Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: IAlready done based on your stipulation of non printed in the comics Levitz quote. Utilizing the general reading abilities learned from grade school and beyond not to mention cut n paste; Action Comics 864 and Legion of 3Worlds.
Sorry, I asked you for a panel. Issue numbers aren't panels. (And Legion of Three Worlds doesn't count anyway unless Paul used it somewhere else.)
quote:Don't we have to wait and see if Paul Levitz says Action Comics 900 is in continuity before we can establish any facts?
No, because Paul didn't make a statement about Action #900 similar to the one he made about Legion of Three Worlds.
Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Power Boy: hey hey hey hey
it's gettin a lil crazy in here.
Absolutely trying.
I've posted actual modern comics referencing the pocket universe in current continuity , and for sort followed the movable scale that is Levitz' approval and now it seems continuity is based on what the characters, on this case the Time Trapper himself is really thinking beyond what he referencing during the context of his own conversations.
So if there is a loop hole not in print causing the PU to"not" be in current continuity then we can use behind the scenes Facebook non Legion Proper theories to prove it isn't including but limited to anything not though of or printed yet....so it seems.
Meanwhile I'll just use Action Comics 864 as a modern reference to the Pocket Universe unless anything actually published can establish or prove it never happened.
Registered: Sep 2003
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Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: [Meanwhile I'll just use Action Comics 864 as a modern reference to the Pocket Universe unless anything actually published can establish or prove it never happened.
But in Action 864 the Trapper says "I've attacked head on, confused them with pocket dimensions and alternate history". Nowhere is the term Pocket Universe used. It is 'pocket dimensions' (plural) linked to alternate history. It's only my opinion but I do not see this as saying the pocket universe exists in this reality. My interpretation of this statement was that Geoff Johns was acknowledging the Post Crisis (Pocket Universe), Mordru-verse and Glorith-verse realities as being known to the Trapper. It takes a long stretch of the imagination to think that attacking with alternate history has happened in this continuity - it happened in an alternate continuity otherwise it wouldn't be alternate - so why would the pocket dimensions be any different.
That's my opinion. I guess the statement in Action 864 is more ambiguous than I read it so until a detailed history of this Legion comes out it will remain a question mark to some.
Personally, I cannot see a storyline where the Legion has had a Clark-Superboy-who-will-grow-up-to-be-Superman since the early days (and a Mon-El) and then another Superboy (with another Mon-El possibly) pops out of the ether and produces anything like the PU story arc as told. There is no never-was-a-Superboy Superman for the PU Superboy to meet or replace in Legion history and so there was no reason for the Trapper to create the Pocket Universe.
Added to which, the Superman editorial team was only too happy to drop the Superman killed the phantom zone prisoners storyline from continuity so dragging up the PU would be an embarrasment to the Superman titles.
The PU was a good story with powerful moments but it was there to fill gaps in the Superman/boy relationship with the Legion that have now been filled by the real Superboy again. It served a purpose in it's own continuity but not in this one so why would DC want the PU in this reality?
-------------------- "Our devotion to each other was unexplainable" "You were kids" "No Batman, we were Legion"
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: [Meanwhile I'll just use Action Comics 864 as a modern reference to the Pocket Universe unless anything actually published can establish or prove it never happened.
But in Action 864 the Trapper says "I've attacked head on, confused them with pocket dimensions and alternate history". Nowhere is the term Pocket Universe used. It is 'pocket dimensions' (plural) linked to alternate history. It's only my opinion but I do not see this as saying the pocket universe exists in this reality. My interpretation of this statement was that Geoff Johns was acknowledging the Post Crisis (Pocket Universe), Mordru-verse and Glorith-verse realities as being known to the Trapper. It takes a long stretch of the imagination to think that attacking with alternate history has happened in this continuity - it happened in an alternate continuity otherwise it wouldn't be alternate - so why would the pocket dimensions be any different.
Now see, I see "this" reality as existing PRE Glorith -verse since it is PRE 5year Gap and since Johns made such an effort to place the JLA /JSA Legion PRE Crisis, in addition to not moving them forward passed say , Magic Wars; any reference to a Pocket Universe would seem to be an obvious one towards specifically the one the Time Trapper created especially since it is HIM referencing it.
quote: my opinion. I guess the statement in Action 864 is more ambiguous than I read it so until a detailed history of this Legion comes out it will remain a question mark to some.
Absolutely! And for me the questions gear more towards "how it didn't happen?" over a simple "let's assume it didn't happen, shall we?".
quote: Persoall, I cannot see a storyline where the Legion has had a Clark-Superboy-who-will-grow-up-to-be-Superman since the early days (and a Mon-El) and then another Superboy (with another Mon-El possibly) pops out of the ether and produces anything like the PU story arc as told. There is no never-was-a-Superboy Superman for the PU Superboy to meet or replace in Legion history and so there was no reason for the Trapper to create the Pocket Universe.
Except the Time Trapper stated he tried to eliminate Superboy from reality and in doing so created the Pocket Universe (Dimension). Making absolute no reference to a story would be easier to say it never happened than by referencing it both visually and textually. By doing that you ,as a writer are stating it happened ( some way or another) and as a reader you are left with wondering HOW, but either way wether explained or not...it seems to have happened.
Theoretically, it could have been a long adventure after Crisis when time was all messed up just as we seen it, but in reverse. Meaning the Legion was fooled from Cosmic Boy's mini up till Conspiracy. Who knows.
At the same time remember, Levitz wanted Supergirl ( the original who died in Crisis) to be Sensor Girl and wrote that character that way until that changed... But this might give some insight to a possible perspective on how the Legion works in DC Continuity if you look at it from the future (1000 years) back towards the past. Knowing there is a huge gap to fill and it isn't necessarily cohesive and not intended to be. Hence Levitz stating "chroniclers error" upon his return.
From Brainy's perspective , I imagine he might say something like " oh look it's Superboy, are you here for good or are you going to disappear again" sarcastically. And big dumb Clark might just laugh as he runs off to chat with Kara, whom he hasn't met yet in his own time...
quote:Added to which, the Superman editorial team was only too happy to drop the Superman killed the phantom zone prisoners storyline from continuity so dragging up the PU would be an embarrasment to the Superman titles.
I havnt read anything about this. Is there anything published negating this story, I heard Matrix was in the recent Reign In Hell mini. The embarrassment part is opinion and I'm sure isn't "as" embarrassing as say whats going on there right now with all the citizenship crapola, YMMV.
quote: The PU was a good story with powerful moments but it was there to fill gaps in the Superman/boy relationship with the Legion that have now been filled by the real Superboy again. It served a purpose in it's own continuity but not in this one so why would DC want the PU in this reality?
It was a great story and a classic use of retconning we no longer see in comics, it gave life to a character and successfully saved the Legions roots and past published adventures. It makes sense it was a labor of love from Paul Levitz and I agree it may not be needed today...but then there shouldn't be references made to it next thing ya might see Anti-Lad showing up confusing things even more.
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