quote:Originally posted by the Hermit: I think what's ultimately important here is the personal timeline of a character, in this case Mon-El. It's pretty obvious that the guy who is now Legion leader and Green Lantern did not die (I would think he would remember a thing like that).
Thus, as far as the characters we are currently reading the adventures of are concerned, the Conspiracy, death of Superboy and the Cosmic Boy miniseries (in which he met a Superman that treated him like a new kid in town) never happened.
Any other way of looking at it seems to me to be nothing more than an intellectual exercise with no bearing on current continuity.
Excellent way of putting it and isn't that precisely what is happening here? None of this has a true bearing on continuity and arent we are all just "mentally exercising"?
But I was referring to the Superman/Superboy/Legion story that happened just before the Pocket Universe...even though the Cosmic Boy mini is just another good example of efforts made at that time to create a "context" within to make these concerns valid in their context....or continuity. Where is the point of reference for the context of continuity...modern continuity being made? Is there some popular mindset that determines wha tis "important", one that I didn't get the letter on for certain. I know for example that the Magic Wars at the time of publication was a slow and agonizing read....and absolutely recall what a shame it was that Mon-El's death was downplayed so much. It was obvious that it was set up for the next series based on that and low and behold on rereading the series it all makes sense. Somehow me, the reader sees the bigger picture being painted over the smaller strokes a month at a time. Fast forward 20 plus years and its hard to conceive the book will read as a direct continuation from Legion 63, but given the context of modern continuity and using published reference as a guide , that would be the only way to accept things now. The mental exercise comes in on where to disconnect what I thought I knew, like Garth is really Proty( which is true in the same continuity as Mon-el dying) , over what I will know all over again due to the fact that these stories trump the 5year gap adventures. Knowing that why would I cherry pick with CERTAINTY what did happen or what didn't? It isn't an " error" if Mon-el isn't dead nor is it if Conspiracy still happened because nothing published changes those stories. You can guess that they no longer happened but what makes you certain?
Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: The mental exercise comes in on where to disconnect what I thought I knew, like Garth is really Proty( which is true in the same continuity as Mon-el dying) , over what I will know all over again due to the fact that these stories trump the 5year gap adventures.
There are plenty of things which are true both during 5YL and prior to it. Proty/Garth isn't one. Mon-El dying is. You are taking a scene which is obviously supposed to mean that Mon-El is dead and reading it as him not being dead, on very flimsy grounds that if taken seriously would negate pretty much any death whatsoever.
If you can say "we didn't see a death, we just saw a flatline", someone else can say "we didn't see a death, we just saw someone being disintegrated" or "we didn't see a death, we just saw a bullet through their head followed by a funeral". If Mon-El's death isn't a death because we just saw a flatline, then there are no deaths.
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
Yeah, there could have been two Superboys. But it raises the question of how far you should go just to say that something is still in continuity. After all, you can explain away almost anything if you try enough; it's just a question of how much you want to make up.
Except for Paul's remark on Facebook about the marriage, all signs are that Superboy's death and Conspiracy have been retconned away and are out of continuity. Yes, you can interpret it otherwise, but you end up making straightforward stories into ones that are not, you end up assuming that important information has been withheld from the reader or is behind the scenes, and you have to assume that characters who might occasionally speak of it somehow never do.
We all know that retconning is bad for the long run. But refusing to admit that retconning happened can be too. The convoluted reasoning you need to do to say that this was not retconned makes Legion history make less sense, in the same way that retcons themselves make history make less sense.
Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Iam Legion: Not saying that the PU storyline is still in-continuity... or even that it should be. Just saying that until DC or one of it's employees definatively states otherwise, it MAY be. So it is still in the 'unanswered' category until a writer chooses to deal with it one way or the other.
It "may" have happened, but everything we've seen so far (except for Paul's comment about the divorce) points to it not having happened. What we've seen requires *far* less twisting and reinterpretation to fit with "it didn't happen" than to fit with "it happened". They're not equal possibilities.
Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Iam Legion: Not saying that the PU storyline is still in-continuity... or even that it should be. Just saying that until DC or one of it's employees definatively states otherwise, it MAY be. So it is still in the 'unanswered' category until a writer chooses to deal with it one way or the other.
It "may" have happened, but everything we've seen so far (except for Paul's comment about the divorce) points to it not having happened. What we've seen requires *far* less twisting and reinterpretation to fit with "it didn't happen" than to fit with "it happened". They're not equal possibilities.
What we've seen being actual flashbacks to those members involved floating on rocks during their fight with the Time Trapper along him stating such during Action Comics.
Published work being canon cherry picking or not. Sometimes you have to wonder how far some will go to twist what "didn't" happen. I'll take actual printed work over theories any day .
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I'm not sure which Action Comics issues you're referring to (I really would appreciate issue numbers, since they should go in the list), but if these were Johns-era comics (which I assume they are), Johns' idea of continuity was different from Paul's and he included several things that Paul has ignored as continuity.
Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Iam Legion: Mon-El died. He flat lined and Shady was clearly upset. Now, she could have suddenly realized she could revive him and did it off pannel just moments later... or he could have been revived much later by as yet unknown means. The circumstances of the revival (like so many other discrepancies) are unknown... but he was DEAD and now he is alive and obviously has been for some time.
During a universal power failure Mon-El's life support shutdown causing the heart monitor to flatline. 2 issues passed and that version of the Legion title ended with no continuation of that plotline. Ignoring 5 year Gap, we have the current continuity as the continuation of that cliffhanger. Those are all the facts present. Did he die? We don't know. Meanwhile ... Luornu and Val's off panel "comebacks" are just as easily accepted based on less.
Just observating emotion and bias over printed facts.
Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: I'm not sure which Action Comics issues you're referring to (I really would appreciate issue numbers, since they should go in the list), but if these were Johns-era comics (which I assume they are), Johns' idea of continuity was different from Paul's and he included several things that Paul has ignored as continuity.
Action 864 and I agree while Johns has a great grasp in writing Legion he ( like so many of us can) seems to make a few continuity mistakes. Like in the same issue when he references JLoA 148 as something Batman or any of them would remember when in fact the issue ended as an out of continuity adventure like so many of the alternate Eath team ups did back then. However, like Time Trappers reference to the Pocket Universe the essential point is made with in the context of it's utilization. There so many times as a reader that you just wince at how simple it would be to just "get it right" and half those issues wouldn't be. Although, since creative intent is considered canon then it's safe to assume the same can be said for those " mistakes" . I doubt it is intentional on the part of the creators to not read the books they oh so bad want to reference, it seems they like us recall the "good stuff" the highlights. But forget the stories that lead up to those highlights.
Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: Although, since creative intent is considered canon then it's safe to assume the same can be said for those " mistakes" .
Yes, but we have a different creator now.
If Johns became writer again and started writing stories which implied a pocket universe I'd certainly say it's part of continuity again.
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
So to you the entire continuity of a series is based on who is writing the book?
I take it Action 900 must not be in continuity then...is this more of what one brings to the table to prove something "didn't" happen?
Not to mention that Levitz wrote the Pocket Universe and it was his baby...based on "his" continuity you still have nothing published to deny or prove it never happened. Just another writer using the idea and moving it forward in present time.
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: Action 864 and I agree while Johns has a great grasp in writing Legion he ( like so many of us can) seems to make a few continuity mistakes. Like in the same issue when he references JLoA 148 as something Batman or any of them would remember when in fact the issue ended as an out of continuity adventure like so many of the alternate Eath team ups did back then.
I looked these up. Action 864 has a page of the Time Trapper with some floating rocks, but it's not a flashback and there are no Legionnaires on them. The upper left does have some unidentified people in it, but it's not part of the main scene with the floating rocks. And even if that's somehow a flashback, it doesn't imply that the story is part of current continuity except in the sense that it's erased from history but the Trapper still knows about it.
For JLA #148, the story says that GL wipes out memories of things related to everyone's personal futures, which means they won't know that the satellite blew up. Batman wouldn't forget meeting the Legion.
Registered: Apr 2010
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